Do we have a new leader in oil filters now?

[glfredrick]

Old Mechanic...

I said we were "mixing metaphors" because the debate was starting to compare apples to oranges, and intentionally by some...

Let me ask a couple simple questions:

How often is the oil changed in a top fuel engine?
How often are the bearings (pistons, crank, cam, lifters, etc.) changed?
How many total miles are put on that vehicle in its life?
How varried is the terrain and condition that it drives in?
How much does it tow on a trailer?
How often does it "lug" at low RPM?
How much does the vehicle weigh?
How long does it sit at idle at stop-lights with low oil psi?

I could go on some, but I think you get the point. Our vehicles, subjected to everyday driving around the city and on the highway, may incur different types of wear and longevity issues than a top fuel dragster engine.

I'll still stick with what I've found to be useful. You can do what you like, but I would be careful equating what happens in a top fuel dragster with our everyday vehicles. Apples to oranges... Just a thought, what happens when we take a look at Baja 1000 vehicles versus drag racing vehicles? Anything change? What about Indy 500 cars versus drag cars?

FYI, I'm an old drag racer from way back... I've also been a CORR racer. I'm not just blowing smoke. I know the different envrioments and the different needs, and so do any people out there that think about it.

 

[stang99x]

There are two listed recommendations in your manual. Regular, and severe. If you have an oil related problem, there is going to be a reason the dealer or manufacturer finds that makes your driving habits severe. Then they are going to tell you, since you didn't follow our severe service guidelines with service on your motor, we can't honor your warranty. I've been in this industry for over 10 years. I have seen all the ins and outs. I have seen the worst of the worst and the best of the best.

His 47 Chrysler ("smoked like the dickens..."), his 52 Ford ("blew up the motor"), his 59 Chevy ("blown rod"), his 65 Chevelle ("right through the oil pan..."), his 69 Pontiac ("started knocking...")...

Well, I'd say those were the american cars that were always mythologically known to be good for 100K miles, then rebuild, bar none. Thats just what they did. The tolerances weren't like todays (as you should know) and things wore out faster. A properly maintained engine this days with the tightest tolerances ever produced with new age materials can last well into the hundreds of thousands, as my customers Yukon example shows. I mean come on, a 47 chrysler smoked, well thats either rings or valve seals, those things still wear out today cause they were rubber seals and rings. A 52 Ford, blew up the motor doesn't exactly tell the problem, and maybe he couldn't remember it, but I've seen cars with 50K miles on them "blow up the motor" for no reason whatsoever, clean on the inside with no buildup but it just gave out. A 59 Chevy, I believe thrown rod would be the term, and that isn't all that uncommon. Same with the 65 Chevelle and a knocking 69 pontiac, well obviously over time the rod bearing wore out or a wrist pin gave away. None of those cars have miles listed, maybe some of them had 100K plus on them. Like I said, weren't designed to run over 100K either.

1-MSN and Consumer guide are the 2 most popular and informatable sources around when researching new or used vehicles. FUNNY! You DID NOT find out about the motor problems on Alldata so how would you or anyone else know about the bad Toyota motors if you went to buy a used one that is over the Toyota warranted period??? From CHARMIN perhaps??? BRILLIANCE!!!

That would be consumer reports. They take a test vehicle, drive it 30K or so miles, and give you the stats along the way. 1 vehicle, then data that anyone can send them about what has happened to their car which gives you a statistical number with no data behind it like driving habits, maintenence habits, most popular model, etc. Yeah, I'd trust that for a car knowledge resource. You should call charmin, they'll tell you the paper is for your ass not your ears

2- Please provide us with a link to your oil posting. IF you have one

To which specific oil posting would you like? The whole thing is about oil.

3- If you change your oil every 3,000 miles then you have fallen into the quick lube oil chains trap.

No, I haven't fallen into anything. I know what the OIL MANUFACTURER recommends, i've seen the product of extended intervals, and I know the guy who runs the shop down the road who is constantly getting more motor replacement business than he can handle from the idiots around here who change their oil at extended intervals. Hell, I even bought a machine for my shop called sludge out just for the morons who go that long and fill their pans with crap. I make more money using that machine than selling oil. I still say 3000 miles, customers still go longer, and they still get sludge. If you want so bad to take your warranty out of the auto manufacturers hands and put it into amsoils or Mobil1's hands, then more power to you. You can fight with those idiots for a new motor. I'd rather just do whats necassary, and maintain the proper warranty, like most sensible people would.

4- I think you may be correct stating that the manufacturs will not warrantee their vehicles if you change your oil every 10,000 miles. All of my vehicles factory books recommend changing the oil every 7,500 miles. NOT 3,000 miles. Hummmm, I wonder how they can do that and still give out warrantys on their vehicles?

As I stated earlier, there are two types of changes recommended. Regular and severe. Try this: http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/94-1.html Learn something new everyday. I'll bet you are a severe service driver.

 

[aldive]

There are two listed recommendations in your manual.

Now you are saying recommended, what hap pended to your required?

No, I haven't fallen into anything. I know what the OIL MANUFACTURER recommends, i've seen the product of extended intervals, and I know the guy who runs the shop down the road who is constantly getting more motor replacement business than he can handle from the idiots around here who change their oil at extended intervals.

I too have seen the results of extended OCIs and have never experienced any sludge problems and have been backed up with outstanding UOA and excellent TBNs.

Hell, I even bought a machine for my shop called sludge out just for the morons who go that long and fill their pans with crap. I make more money using that machine than selling oil. I still say 3000 miles, customers still go longer, and they still get sludge.

A machine, hummm, sounds mighty Jiffy Lubeish to me.

Calling people "morons" doesn't do much for your credibility.

Where is your shop in the Atlanta area; I will have a friend drop by and check it out?

 

[ma96782]

I see "good enough" as a negative, the glass is half empty. The product doesn't really meet any standards, but for a one-time use, etc., it is "good enough" -- in other words, a throw-away product.

On the other hand, I see "reasonable quality" as positive, the glass is half full. This product beats the minimum threshold standard, and it is a product that I will have for some time, use often, etc., but it is not exactly the TOP possible product, nor the TOP possible buck.

And, you continued on......

In my world, with my expectations and life-definitions, Fram and Dino oils are just "good enough" which may be great for some people, but I prefer "reasonable quality." I've done my own testing, I've cut apart filters from EVERY manufacturer, both before and after running them, and I've ran the Amsoil products since the very early 1980s with stellar performance. I know where I come down on the issues, and why I do.

Your opinion may differ -- so be it.

Yes, so be it.............change your oil and fliter, with whatever you like, and as often as you like............it's your motor.

But, IMHO......half is, half.......is half, is half, is half.....all day long......no matter how you fill your cup. "Good enough and resonable quality," using your definition.........still sounds like the same thing.........at least to me. Logic says, "it's still half."

Aloha, Mark

PS........BTW.......I did like the Corvette vs. High Dollar Italian Sports Car example.

But, for some (myself included) sometimes, when faced with a decision...........a line is drawn and/or a compromise is made (even if it's only in one's mind) on what is important to the one faced w/ the decision. The decision is made or put aside.........you have the free will. In the end, it's your money to spend how you want to.

 

[glfredrick]

I'm familiar with the Motorvac machine. I used to sell a BUNCH of them to shops all over the Louisville area when I was a Snap On tool dealer.

They're for all those guys that don't think that their oil and filters are a problem...

BTW, they work GREAT. I am a great fan of the Motorvac system. I just don't need it myself. I've pulled down engines with 200+K on them that I've run with Amsoil on 25 K changes, and they look like new inside. Generally I button them right back up and go to running.

I did find out once, my stupidity, that running Amsoil on a fresh rebuild wasn't a good way to go. The engine smoked like crazy and wouldn't stop. Turns out it never broke in. There were still honing marks on the cylinder walls. Ran a stone down through the cylinders, ran some dino oil for the first 10,000 and end of problems.

I know that some of you put Amsoil (and good filters) in the category of "snake oil" and so be it. There are a lot of "snake oil" products on the market and a lot of people make a lot of money using them and selling them. Some -- just once in a while -- are not snake oil, and do work -- better than industry standards. They've been tested, tried, and proven by many, many satisfied customers over many, many miles, on and off the track. I'm one. Aldive is another (any of you dino oil fans getting HIS mpg out of your Explorers?).

I've shared the procedure that sold me on using the products. That is backed up by real world vehicles that run real world miles. My 92 'Sploder has 230K and still running fine, though I beat the snot out of it. Gears in the diff are still in great shape, though I've filled them with water several times. Gained 2 mpg on the Trailblazer after an Amsoil changeover. Saw a Chevette I purchased brand new run 240 K with an ANNUAL oil change @ 25K. Last time I went home it was still running...

I've also seen a whole lotta motors that didn't do what mine do... Just stop by your friendly local neighborhood engine rebuilder and check his recieving dock...

 

[ma96782]

I know that some of you put Amsoil (and good filters) in the category of "snake oil" and so be it. There are a lot of "snake oil" products on the market and a lot of people make a lot of money using them and selling them. Some -- just once in a while -- are not snake oil, and do work -- better than industry standards. They've been tested, tried, and proven by many, many satisfied customers over many, many miles, on and off the track. I'm one. Aldive is another (any of you dino oil fans getting HIS mpg out of your Explorers?).

Snake oil......being a derogatory term.

I don't put syn oil (major brands) in the category of "snake oil." Nor, do I put their filters in the "snake oil category."

I don't dis-believe, that syn oil is better. But, it comes at a higher cost. Whether that higher costs justifies the switch (cost benefits).......I'm not convinced, yet.

IMHO.......dino and a 3K mile oil filter change is suitable, for what I'm doing, and comes at a lower cost.

But, for some folks………….FRAM is equivalent to “Snake Oil.” And that, is just NOT RIGHT in my book.

Aloha, Mark

 

[aldive]

Mark,

lets look at the cost issue that you brought up.

Put your numbers to the paper, so to say. What does it actually cost you to run 35k miles with a 3k OCI? List the oil used and cost per quart, the filter used and cost per filter.

After that I shall post what it costs me ( not my wholesale price, bur retail ) to go 35k using Amsoil and filter.

Oh and you can leave out the cost of your time.

Have you done a UOA after a 3k change?

 

[ma96782]

35,000 divided by 3000 = 11.66

So, call it 11 oil changes (sometimes, it don‘t get changed exactly on time).

$7 and change (Wally World oil) + $2 (Wally World filter) = (say it‘s) $10

So, Total (call it) $110

And, NO, I haven't done a UOA after 3K.........I don't consider that it's needed or that it will reveal some great revelation.........but, I'm willing to consider that, "I could be wrong."

Aloha, Mark

 

[aldive]

35,000 divided by 3000 = 11.66

So, call it 11 oil changes (sometimes, it don‘t get changed exactly on time).

$7 and change (Wally World oil) + $2 (Wally World filter) = (say it‘s) $10

So, Total (call it) $110

Aloha, Mark

Well, here is my counter ....

Cost of a 35k mile OCI using Amsoil Series 2000 0w30 oil:

Retail pricing

Series 2000 oil 5 quarts@ $9.70 per quart = $48.50
Amsoil EAO oil filter @ $15.70
TOTAL = $64.20

Wholesale pricing

Same oil @ $7.50 per quart or $$37.50
Same filter @ $11.50
TOTAL = $49.00

Wholesale pricing is available to any member of this site.

---------------------------

$110 -$64.20 = $45.80 saved using Amsoil at retail and $61 at wholesale. Further, think of the time saved.

It doesn't cost more to use Amsoil.

Also the time saved is about 10 hours.

And, NO, I haven't done a UOA after 3K.........I don't consider that it's needed or that it will reveal some great revelation.........but, I'm willing to consider that, "I could be wrong."

It will reveal that you are throwing away perfectly good oil ( and money ).

 

[aldive]

Further, by using my bypass filtration system, I feel that I can easily go 50k and maybe even 100k miles.

 

[ma96782]

Wholesale pricing

Same oil @ $7.50 per quart or $$37.50
Same filter @ $11.50
TOTAL = $49.00

Wholesale pricing is available to any member of this site.

Is that with shipping???

_______________________________________________________________

Even IF shipping was included in the prices.........

$110 -$64.20 = $45.80 saved using Amsoil at retail and $61 at wholesale. Further, think of the time saved.

OK, so you change oil at 35K intervals (not that I would go that long).........and how much was it for the UOA? And since you're checking using the UOA method. How many times is the UOA done during the cycle before you'll change your syn oil? Shouldn't that be part of the cost figure?

Or, did you do it once.............then, called it good for the next 35K, and the next 35K, and the next 35K? Do you recommend that others follow your schedule?

Would the major car MFNs stand behind a schedule of 35K using syn oil and a high priced filter?

Aloha,Mark

PS.............UOA cost something.........you said:

It will reveal that you are throwing away perfectly good oil ( and money ).

OK......so, I'll change oil after 5K or 7.5K or 10K........that means my costs go down. But, I know that the UOA cost something and should be included in the costs figure.

 

[ma96782]

Further, by using my bypass filtration system, I feel that I can easily go 50k and maybe even 100k miles.

How many filters you got there? If, you got more than one, shouldn't all of the costs.......for each filter........be included in the cost figure?

Aloha,Mark

PS........And, I'm not even asking you to amortize the cost of the by pass system.

 

[aldive]

How many filters you got there? If, you got more than one, shouldn't all of the costs.......for each filter........be included in the cost figure?

Aloha,Mark

PS........And, I'm not even asking you to amortize the cost of the by pass system.

The filter is rated by Amsoil for 25k miles; I wouldn't hesitate to go the 35ki.

 

[aldive]

How many filters you got there? If, you got more than one, shouldn't all of the costs.......for each filter........be included in the cost figure?

Aloha,Mark

PS........And, I'm not even asking you to amortize the cost of the by pass system.

Those figuers are for 1 filter ( Amsoil recommended for 25k miles ).

The data presented is for a normal motor situation; bypass is not required, therefore need not be factored in. I just happen to use a bypass system.

 

[aldive]

Is that with shipping???

No, but how many trips to the auto parts store are involved in your situation?


[quote[OK, so you change oil at 35K intervals (not that I would go that long).........and how much was it for the UOA? And since you're checking using the UOA method. How many times is the UOA done during the cycle before you'll change your syn oil? Shouldn't that be part of the cost figure?

Or, did you do it once.............then, called it good for the next 35K, and the next 35K, and the next 35K? Do you recommend that others follow your schedule?[/quote]

UOA is not required; I just personally do it.

Would the major car MFNs stand behind a schedule of 35K using syn oil and a high priced filter?

Thats a whole nuther can of worms. Will they back the extended OCIs recommended by Mobil 1? Who knows.

 

[ma96782]

The filter is rated by Amsoil for 25k miles

That is informative.

So, IF I were to use their filter (but, stick w/ dino).........should I just drain the pan and replace dino. Leaving the dirty oil in the filter.

Or, drain oil pan and also drain the oil filter (and replace dino). Wouldn't that potentially cause a problem w/ a possible gasket failure (some call it, filter failure)?

________________________________________________________________

Or.........are you recommending........complete switch to syn oil and new Amsoil filter.........then only topping off as needed, throughout the 25-35K miles?

How many miles is the Amsoil syn oil rated for (by Amsoil)?

Aloha, Mark

PS................

No, but how many trips to the auto parts store are involved in your situation?

I go grocery shopping there (Wally World) where I also pick up oil and filters........so, I'm already there (no extra trip is needed).

IMHO.........shipping is suppose be included in your cost figure.

 

[dreamr]

damn is this debate still going


Personally I agree with Al's assesment of Amsoil or similar products. However I can't bring myself to run my Ex or 'Stang past 3-5k on oil changes regardless of the fact that I only use Amsoil or Mobile 1. Grunge starts to build-up......likely beacuse I am deffinately in the severe use category for both vehicles and they are both over 100k. If the oil is starting to turn brown it's time for a change. The mustang needs this at 4-5K The truck can make it about 5-7k but I do them at the same time.

Now the KIA. I change the filter with a amsoil (K&N doesn't make one) once every 6 months and the oil once a year (only sees 7-8k) I know my GF will forget about it so the good stuff was neccessary for the safety of her engine, and I check the levels for her on Saturday morning while she is sleeping.

Also I recommend an engine flush on every third change or so....

 

[aldive]

Or.........are you recommending........complete switch to syn oil and new Amsoil filter.........then only topping off as needed, throughout the 25-35K miles?


Aloha, Mark

Yes, thats my recommendation, however, if one wanted to be conservative, change the filter at 17.5k miles and add 1 quart of new oil.

I have never had to top off a single drop of oil in my Explorers 130k life.

Further, Mark, even if the cost of materials were the same, the time saved alone would be worth it ( in my opinion ).

 

[aldive]

damn is this debate still going


Personally I agree with Al's assesment of Amsoil or similar products. However I can't bring myself to run my Ex or 'Stang past 3-5k on oil changes regardless of the fact that I only use Amsoil or Mobile 1. Grunge starts to build-up......likely beacuse I am deffinately in the severe use category for both vehicles and they are both over 100k. If the oil is starting to turn brown it's time for a change. The mustang needs this at 4-5K The truck can make it about 5-7k but I do them at the same time.

Now the KIA. I change the filter with a amsoil (K&N doesn't make one) once every 6 months and the oil once a year (only sees 7-8k) I know my GF will forget about it so the good stuff was neccessary for the safety of her engine, and I check the levels for her on Saturday morning while she is sleeping.

Also I recommend an engine flush on every third change or so....

Maybe do a UOA and see where you are. Just a suggestion.

I run the Amsoil good stuff in the boats engines as well and go well over 100 hours before changing; never a problem. And my friend that is severe use for any motor or oil.

 

[ma96782]

This is getting interesting.........

Mobil 1 (full syn)
Royal Purple
or
Whatever brand

Anyone want to post what their favorite syn oil change interval is?

Does your syn oil MFN say it's OK to go that long between changes?

What are your costs for the 35K miles challenge?

I'm interested.

Aloha, Mark