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Ford to build hybrid-electric SUV

Gigantor

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City, State
Ringwood, NJ
Year, Model & Trim Level
'93 XLT
I found this, im not sure what to say so I figued Id just post it for you guys.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/391802.asp



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Nick
'93 XLT 4 Door 4x4
Bosch Plat+4's with SplitFire Dual Core wires and a
K&N Air Filter with a Modified Air Box
 



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I saw that on the news, pretty sweet! I saw this on the channel that normally hates Fords and will make a 10-minute story out of a minor Ford recall such as the leaf springs on the f-150 (it was a short fix - just required the springs to be clamped, but they went on and on about how unsafe this could be), and won't even mention things like the new VW Beetle being recalled because of engines catching fire. Anyways they put it in a very positive light and of course interviewed the people at the gas stations with the suburbans saying "I'm in support of an SUV that gets 40 miles to the gallon!" like they needed to interview people to find that out, LOL.

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Matt Adams
94 Explorer 4-door nick-named "Tippy"
http://bart.is-s.com/~explorers/explorer/explorer.html
 






Posted that back on 4/7 in Ford Corporate and Financial.

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Peter
'99 Sport 4wd SOHC
 






I'm not that impressed. They could probably do as good or better with a turbo diesal. I get 53 MPG in my TDI VW Golf which probably isn't much smaller than the Escape.

There is a university on the East Coast that has a Chevy Suburban using a VW TDI engine which drives a generator at a constant speed. The generator then produces electricty to drive electric wheel motors (sort of like a diesal electric locomotive). It's said to have excellant response and speed, The fuel economy is better than 50mpg. In a SUBURBAN.
 






My personal opinion is that hybrids won't catch on. Honda announced one based on the Civic earlier this year. If my memory is correct, the cost is $3000 more than a regular car. It looks good in news stories for car companies to be able to say 'Look what we're doing to avert another gas crisis'.
$3000 buys a little over 1700 gallons of gas at $1.75/gallon. At an increase of 25mpg for the hybrid, that means you break even after between 40-45K miles. This is not even considering the financing of the extra purchase cost. On top of that, the performance is considerable lower. The mechanics are more complicated, meaning more things to break and repair. Think about it, you use one form of energy (gasoline), convert to another (electricity) and then use it. The conversion is not free, it uses energy too. People are not going to accept higher cost, less performance and more inconvenience and pay a higher price for it.
As I said, IMHO it ain't gonna fly. Sure, eventually the internal combustion engine (or the fuel to propel it) is going to be replaced. But this isn't it, at least not until oil is just about completely depleted and the price quadruples.


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Peter
'99 Sport 4wd SOHC
 






I agree with Tim, the whole point of a hybrid is to reduce pollution from the emissions of the cars of today. True it's not very powerful for the purposes of say, off roading or towing but it has benefits down the road. Dead Link Removed
 






Tim:
I guess this is a continuation of our discussion at the end of March on the OPEC thread. I thought then (and still do) that we think along the same lines.
First, you might notice that in my earlier post this morning I didn’t state that I like or dislike the hybrids. I just said that in my opinion the public is not going to accept them. If they are not successful commercially, the vehicle manufacturers will not produce them. I have no doubt that the internal combustion engine and the fuels used in it will have to be greatly improved and/or replaced by others, hopefully renewable and non-polluting and I’m all for it.
Back in the early seventies, emission control became a hot subject. But the consumers didn’t go out and bought vehicles with catalytic converters. It added to the cost of a vehicle and people didn’t want to pay for it. Emission control equipment had to be mandated. In Europe, they did it 10 years later with tax incentives. Increase in fuel mileage (CAFE standards) had to be mandated. Just last week Ford appealed to have the fleet mileage requirements lifted and turned over and controlled by the automotive industry itself.
I hope you take the following in the context it presented. I’m simply trying to illustrate my personal attitude.
Let’s face it, whenever you’re talking about wasting resources (i.e.: oversized vehicles, lousy gas mileage), the finger points justifiably straight at us SUV owners. I’m sure, we all have our reasons and it’s certainly not up to me to question anybody’s justification.
I do a lot of outdoor type activities like hiking, skiing, camping, landscape photography, etc. You would probably group me into the ‘leaning toward the tree hugger side’ of people on this web site. Heck, I carry a trash bag to pick up other peoples garbage when I go hiking. Anyway, my interest in the outdoors and the capability to get there even under adverse conditions are my reasons to get a 4x4. I think that Ford makes the best trucks for a reasonable price. So, I bought an Explorer Sport, the smallest SUV that Ford makes (up until now). I can afford an XLT, Expedition or Excursion, but I don’t need anything that big. With what I want the vehicle for, I don’t need modifications, therefore none have been made. Similar approach with our other car (my wife and I don’t have his and hers, ours are interchangeable at will). It’s a 3-series BMW. For business reasons (comfortable sized 4-door sedan) I used to have a 5-series. Don’t need that anymore, therefore it was replaced with smaller one, a 3-series. Again, a 7-series V12 is available, but I don’t believe in ‘conspicuous consumption’.
If somebody comes out with a non (or at least lower) polluting vehicle with decent performance with reasonable people and cargo space and the quality is acceptable, I’ll be standing in line the next time I’m buying transportation. Oh, of course it has to look somewhat decent. Some of the European city cars that have come out lately, are just to damn ugly (IMHO of course, Dead Link Removed.
OK Tim, friends again?
PS: You might want to reconsider your perceived opinion of diesel engines. Here is an excerpt of a release last year by VW (I believe this is Rick’s engine):
The four-cylinder TDI engine has a thermal efficiency of 43 percent, the best of any production car engine currently available.
CO and HC emissions are negligible, while an exhaust catalyst and particulate filter remove visible smoke and cut particulate emissions by 50 percent compared to normal diesel engines.
This tour-de-force of diesel technology delivers its peak output of 81 kW at 4150rpm, while maximum torque is a whopping 235 Nm, at only 1900rpm. It is thus capable of propelling the Golf and Jetta TDI from rest to 100 km/h in under 11 seconds, and on to a maximum speed in excess of 190 km/h.
Despite its sporty performance, the TDI engine is remarkably economical. Fitted to the Golf and Jetta, its combined cycle fuel consumption is just 5.0 litres/100 km, while the urban and extra-urban figures are 6.6 and 4.1 litres/100 km respectively.

Rick:
Here is a similar application to that Suburban your talking about:
In and around Oberstdorf, a resort town in southern Germany, 4 Mercedes-Benz O 405 NÜH hybrid buses have been in operation since early 1997. They are equipped with electric wheel-hub motors (maximum output 75 KW per motor), which can be powered either by a low-emission diesel engine (OM 447 hLA, Euro2, 184 kW) or using energy from the traction batteries. When outside city limits, they use diesel power and can reach a maximum speed of 75 km/h.



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Peter
'99 Sport 4wd SOHC
 






Always friends Peter, no problem! Dead Link Removed I think you are completely right. The one thing that will sell this to people, paticularly Americans is how well the vehicle performs. Cost is a big issue and people do not want to take too much of a shot to there wallets, I think that this economic high point in the country may help make less of an issue of it, coupled with the rise in gas prices may push people towards this alternative, hopefully. I will have to say that this may be the most versatile alternative vehicle to date, as well as possibly the most appealing ever as well. It seems like more and more companies are bringing light and paying more and more attention to hybrid vehicles, maybe this will build competition and fuel even more interest from the public. This is all pure conjecture, but I am happy to see the attention has been brought to it, I think the fact that were are even discussing it displays that there is interest and there are those who would be interested in such vehicles. That is very interesting information you presented on the TDI, sounds like a nice engine. I would have to say, and I considered it before, that if I ever did get a VW, that I would more than likely go with the TDI engine, I knew it was good, just didn't know it was that good. Once again Peter, I respect what you and all the other members on the board say, and I agree, I think we really do think along the same lines! Dead Link Removed

P.S. Stephen, this Ford Industry News Forum was truly a great idea. It's created some of the most interesting, in depth threads that I have seen on the board! You're doing a great job! Dead Link Removed

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Tim Y.
1996 Explorer XLT
4.0L OHV 4x4
 






Dead Link Removed

This graph is from my TDI before and after the "Tuning Box" installation. The box installs between the fuel injection pump and the computer. As you can see the performance increase is quite impressive as is the flatness of the curve. Torque could not be calculated on the dyno because there was no way to measure engine rpms from the TDI.

Don't let the 107 HP fool you, there is nearly 175 ft lbs of torque on tap at low RPMS. I have been throughly impressed with this car since I bought it. Passing on the freeway means just putting the pedal down. Down shifting isn't necassary because the torque is right there. This is also the only vehicle I've owned except for my motorcycles where I don't have to down shift going up the mountain passes. Fifth gear at 85 is no problem. I've had it up to 110 and it still wanted to keep going.

Anyway, if you can't tell I like my Golf as much for what it does well as I like my Explorer for what it does well.

What really has me interested is a prototype VW pickup truck. It has a 300HP V-10 Diesal, locking front and rear diffs and other goodies that make for a very capable truck.

I sure wish Ford had a powerful small diesal for the Explorers I would swap one in if they did!
 






I wouldn't mind seeing a nice little diesel that could fit in the Explorer either, not to mention the fact that the thought has crossed my mind before. With all that torque, a diesel would make a terrific trail engine.

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Tim Y.
1996 Explorer XLT
4.0L OHV 4x4

[This message has been edited by NoBoundaries (edited 04-10-2000).]
 






Well, I don't post much on this forum, but I have to agree with Tim, this forum has some great topics for conversation. I learn something every day. Hell I might even get as smart as some of you guy out there if I keep reading. I love this site. Dead Link Removed

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Happy Wheelin'
Ray L.
97 XLT 4X4 4.0L SOHC
Dead Link Removed
 






I think the issue goes beyond good gas mileage, eventhough it does get great gas mileage. And I think it is also less about the fact of gas and how much gas you could buy with 3,000 dollars. I think the big thing to remember is that the vehicle is cleaner. I doesn't just have low emissions, or even ultra low emissions, it meets California’s Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle standards. The vehicle is a clean burning, environmentally healthy (If you can say that about a vehicle) automoblie, and not just an automobile, an SUV, a small one, but an "SUV" nonetheless. Rick pointed out his diesel Golf gets about 53 MPG and Peter pointed out that a hybrid vehicle has less performance. In less performance you are refering to poorer acceleration, you can't get too much worse than the accleration of a diesel engine, now, a diesel has a lot of torque and can tow well, which will be the downside of the hybrid. But hybrid's, and electric vehicles accelerate pretty darn good, my fear is that when people hear electric, they think of those solar power car races where the vehicles reach a top speed of 18 mph. Another downside to diesel that the hybrid will make up for is the fact that no diesel engine will ever meet California’s Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle standards, diesels just aren't clean. I think we will need to wait and see when this vehicle comes out to see what it is capable of, reality is that it will be the only attractive hybrid available. Yeah, the might not perform like a big V8, but if you are not a power hungry person, like so many Americans seem to be, this is a terrific alternative. Reality is, the environment is getting torn apart by our over-consumption, blatant disregaurd and selfish abuse of the world around us. It is sad but true, we, as a majority, hold very little concern for things that do not affect us directly, and it is one of the things that sickens me as an American, but also as Americans, we hold our rights to be very sacred, and yes, we have a right to be ignorant. Now, just to make things clear, I'm am not a communist nor do I associate with any members of the communist party, and I am not a treehugger in any sense of the word, just saying, it may not be the best performing, most capable, or powerful vehicle in the world, but it does more then any other vehicle has. It shows that we do understand that there are problems with how we relate to the world, and that there are those of us out there that still care, that still want to strive for what is right, rather than trying to be the biggest and the best. And no offence to anyone, but belittling something with such promise by making it an issue of money, displays how truely far we are from where we need to be and who completely disillusioned we are by our own self-righteousness. I guess I will just address it directly, Peter I mean no harm to your opinion, and I am sure that that is not what you meant by bring mathmatical understanding to the dollar amounts of such a vehicle, I mearly made this statement knowing there are some people in this world who put dollars before humans, and it is sad that everything in these world, even people, are reduced to a commodity. Just my 2 cents.

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Tim Y.
1996 Explorer XLT
4.0L OHV 4x4
 






Wow, I stand a bit corrected on the emissions of the tdi engine, oh well, alot of people stand corrected with all the super informative posts on this site. As for a diesel doing good on the trails I don't know about that. I guess it would have to do with the amount of torque, I've taken a power stroke 4 wheelen before and it was very rough because of it's low end torque but I guess it just has too much torque. Dead Link Removed
 






I saw one of the Honda Hybrids on the road today. Well, actually it was in a HomeDepot's parking lot. Front end is a Civic and then it tapers in towards the back until it gets kinda chopped off. Anybody remember the old SAABs. It's kind of like that. Two seats in front and a raised deck in the back like an oversized luggage shelf. I would imagine batteries etc. underneath. It looks a little better then the GM EV.
Since it was discussed earlier, just thought I mention that they are on the road.
Also saw a VW van like vehicle today. Not the EuroVan Camper, more like a regular van, just smaller than Ford or GM. Didn't have a camera with me. VW has their West Coast styling studio here in town, so we sometimes see things that are not for sale to the public yet.

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Peter
'99 Sport 4wd SOHC
 






Tim,
Actually, a good thought on the diesels. I read in one of my old four wheeling magazines (from last fall), that Detroit Diesel is in fact making a 4.0L V6 diesel for mass production. The scheduled release date for this engine is 2003. It is also hoped to be an option for Dodge Durangos. I am hoping to have enough extra money at that time to afford one for my 1992. The only drawbacks that I can think of for the diesels is our stock drivetrains are not strong enough for the low end torque. Dead Link Removed This is especially true for the BW 13-54, but Rick won't have to worry about that, with his tight @$$ Atlas II. Dead Link Removed

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1992 Explorer XL
4.0 L V6 5 Speed Manual
 






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