Messed up EX need advice on Expedition v. Navigator

[huskyfan23]

Meant to say what BIG V8

 

[Stephen]

Meant to say what BIG V8

Why do you need a big V8 when you get better performance out of a smaller one thats less heavy and more efficient?

Lexus doesn't really have anything that competes with the Navigator though, at least not yet. The LX470 is old and is being phased out with the Landcruiser to be replaced by a larger SUV based on the Tundra/Sequoia platform that will be more apt competition for the Navigator and Escalade. The LX is pretty small.

 

[Blake D]

Well.... Thanks to all but I just got the 2004 EB Expedition w/ moon roof, heated/ac seats, tow package, 3.73 limited slip, control track 4wd, electric fold 3rd row seat, etc, etc. Great deal got him down over 3K off asking price. Only has 16 K miles. This is very exciting my first "new" vehicle. Now all I need is a site like this for questions (I will still come here often though!)

Blake D

 

[Broccoli1]

Welcome to the Expy world. The Control Trac really works I floored mine during a right hand turn, in the rain and that sucker just stayed straight- I could not get the back end to break out. Comforting since I bought it for the Mrs. and my new son. The Explorer is now my shop truck and will start to get the repairs it needs.

Ed

 

[Stephen]

Congratulations! Enjoy it.

 

[RedEB]

What year was your neighbors LS400 by the way? It has to be at least 5 years old because they stopped making the LS400 in 2000, you can't compare problems with an at least 5 year old and probably 70k mile+ car and a 8 month old 10k mile car...

It's a 99, but I am kinda confused as to what 8 month 10K mile car you are talking about. If you are referring to your son's father in law to be (boy, that is hard ) navigator, I wasn't comparing the two. My point was to state that ALL (yes, even lexus) has lemons. As for your 50/50 statement- that's bull. Half of Ford owners do not hate their vehicles, a company that is hated by 50% of it's owners does not go on to produce the best selling SUVs in the world.

 

[RedEB]

Well.... Thanks to all but I just got the 2004 EB Expedition w/ moon roof, heated/ac seats, tow package, 3.73 limited slip, control track 4wd, electric fold 3rd row seat, etc, etc. Great deal got him down over 3K off asking price. Only has 16 K miles. This is very exciting my first "new" vehicle. Now all I need is a site like this for questions (I will still come here often though!)

Wow! Congrats!!!!!! You have to show us some pics!!! What color?

 

[Stephen]

Sure, all makes have lemons, but my point is you can't call a 6 year old car a lemon, has she owned it since new, has she consistently had problems with it, has she maintained the car?

I didn't say all Ford's are 50/50, I said in my experience. People I've known and even my own experience having owned Fords continuously for the past 27 years. Their quality control is simply not as consistent as the competition, yet. If you look around and ask owners all the problems he's had on his Navigator are pretty ordinary.

 

[RedEB]

I never called her lexus a lemon, I was merely pointing out the quality issues she encountered. Her lexus was actually a '99, but she didn't have the best encounter with Lexus. I'm not saying this is common, but for the amount of miles (~55K) and the amount of maintenance she performed (or her husband ), the quality that has been so marketed about Lexus was certainly not there. For a car that should be the "epitome of reliability", the car was anything but.
Her problems were first encountered when she bought it, but they were relatively benign troubles: power windows/locks not working, environmental controls just blew cold air...etc. Just enought to be annoying, but I would have been pissed if I had paid that much for a luxury car and it gave me that many problems. Was it a lemon? I honestly don't know, I have never driven a Lexus and I don't really know how much of her complaints were true or just typical buyer remorse.

 

[Stephen]

Whats common is some owners will have a couple problems that become solved, but they refuse to get past them even when they were covered by warranty. People come to Lexus expecting them to be "absolutely perfect" and thats just not possible, its a machine and sooner or later it will need repair of some sort or another. People call them "spiled brat owners". I had my 98 for 160k, I think the only problems I ever had were an A/C Compressor that needed to be replaced (the LS has 2), I had a problem with the gauges one time (Lexus uses cold cathode gauge illumination and the gauges are invisible even during the day if they aren't illuminated) and that was it. Sure people have problems, but Lexus has the fewest reported problems per car than any other make, and the Lexus LS specifically has less reported problems than any other vehicle sold in the US.

Lincoln on the other hand as a brand has done much better lately, jumping something like 12 levels in the ratings I'm trying to find those numbers. The Navigator remains their lowest rated offering though.

 

[RedEB]

I agree for the most part, many people whine and complain about problems that are to be expected. Like you said, every car will have problems and the responsibility to maintain on the part of the owner is just that...the responsibility of the owner. Your problems with Lexus don't sound bad at all to me, but I'm sure you would find some "spoiled brat owner" and they would whine and complain until their throat was sore. But couldn't you also say the same about the complaints against the Navigator? Creaking plastic...big whoopie friggin' do. Some people become so obsessed over such minutia and pathetic crap, they lose sight of the big picture. Would I pay alot more for a vehicle that doesn't creak at all or has absolutely perfect interior seams when the other vehicle will perform the exact same function and has all the same amenities? Absolutely not. There is quality and there is minutia, too many people confuse them.
As for the number of problems per vehicle, I remember in my statistics class discussing those numbers. The differences between brands were not even statistically "significant." Also, those numbers do not inform what the vehicles had to have repaired. What if vehicle A had 3 repairs, all of them very inexpensive, while vehicle B had only 1 repair and it was a transmission replacement? WOuld you say that vehicle B was of superior quality because it had less problems quantitatively? I question the validity of those numbers.

 

[Stephen]

Creaking plastic...big whoopie friggin' do. Some people become so obsessed over such minutia and pathetic crap, they lose sight of the big picture.

Its a $65,000 car LOL. Thats why people buy $65,000 cars, so that they operate smoothly, have high quality materials. There is absolutely no excuse for a $65,000 vehicle to creak and rattle, vehicles creak and rattle because they are built poorly with low quality materials and poor body integrity. Luxury cars are supposed to be smooth and rattle free, thats the whole point.

Would I pay alot more for a vehicle that doesn't creak at all or has absolutely perfect interior seams when the other vehicle will perform the exact same function and has all the same amenities? Absolutely not.

I would, and did but I see what you're saying. Okay, if given the choice between two vehicles of the same price, again we're talking about a $65,000 vehicle, you can buy almost anything for $65,000, a Lexus, a BMW, a Mercedes, a Cadillac the list goes on and on. You can have your choice of 90% of the cars on the market at that price, SO why be satisfied with something that squeaks and rattles because its built poorly out of low quality materials?

Expecting your $65,000 car, something that costs more than a house in many places, something that costs almost twice as much as the average income in America to operate smoothly, properly, and squeak and rattle free for its life is hardly an unreasonable expectation. I expect it, and I drive a vehicle that does exactly what I want exactly how I want it to do it. If I wanted to put up with cheap materials and rattling creaking interiors I'd have saved $45,000 and bought a Taurus. Luxury carbuyers are very sophisticated and they know what they want. Thats why Cadillac has sunk as much money as they can into developing the new STS to perform when driving and sitting still like buyers want it to. They realize that they have catchup to do, Lincoln needs to realize this too. This is why Navigators sit on dealer lots for 180 days and are discounted $15,000 for sale...

As for the JD power numbers, its not only problems that are repaired its "negative remarks about the car". Its not meant to be a dependability study, JD power also has a dependability study its simply an indication of reported problems with new cars. Having a low number means there are fewer complaints. A bad transmission is a complaint as are bad cupholders.

 

[RedEB]

Its a $65,000 car LOL. Thats why people buy $65,000 cars, so that they operate smoothly, have high quality materials. There is absolutely no excuse for a $65,000 vehicle to creak and rattle, vehicles creak and rattle because they are built poorly with low quality materials and poor body integrity. Luxury cars are supposed to be smooth and rattle free, thats the whole point.

Give me enough time, and I will find a rattle in a lexus or any other vehicle for that matter. Lexus, mercedes, BMWs, etc... may be very quiet, but I seriously doubt that they have NO creaks. This is especially pertinent in temperature-varying regions where plastics expand and contract as well as the metal frame. People buy $65,000 cars because of multiple reasons, not strictly for a creak-free ride. They buy them for the amenities, the added electronic toys, the extra power, and the big one..prestige. Creaking plastic, how many decibels?? Very subjective. Creaking plastics can be from many things such as abuse, added frame twist lest ye forget that the Navigator is an SUV built on a truck frame. People who buy the Navigator should know that and if stupid, insiginficant little creaks are enough to discourage someone from buying a vehicle, I suggest that some more factors be considered. I propose that people who are soooooo wrapped up in having a silent interior and the "prestige" about having the "ultimate driving machine" are basically car snobs (not calling you a car snob, but they are out there). I would take a Navigator over a Lexus or Beamer any day because of the functionality it offers. Are there Lexus that are also functional? Sure, you just better be willing to pay a heck of alot more without any real benefits except for quieter plastic.

that are repaired its "negative remarks about the car".

Again, that really says nothing. I complain because I need a bigger cupholder and a different color interior while another person complains about the transmission. 2 versus 1, obviously the person encountering the transmission problem has a better vehicle. In addition, the numbers are again, statistically not significant, especially when one considers the sheer volume that FOrd sells as opposed to the other brands.

 

[Stephen]

Give me enough time, and I will find a rattle in a lexus or any other vehicle for that matter.

Of course, but I've owned a lot of cars in my life and driven/ridden in many many more. I've had 2 Lexuses, a Cadillac, 2 Lincolns, several Chryslers, many Fords, Nissans, Toyotas I've extensively driven Lincolns, Cadillacs, Fords, Chevrolets when I travel. I've never encountered a car that resists rattles as it ages like a Lexus. Talk to some owners, these cars stay tight and rattle free for hundreds of thousands of miles. I couldn't drive my Cadillac or my Lincolns without the radio on at 60k, but my 98 LS400 was as silent on the way to be traded in at 160k as it was when I bought it with 14 miles on it. Tjose were 160k hard miles too on Washington DC potholed streets, long expanses of highway, that car even went offroad several times in West Virginia trying to get back to cemeteries and things of that nature and it never showed a sign of wear. Its really a wondeful automobile and I doubt I'll ever buy anything else again. I've never driven anything else that I enjoy as much.

Wanting your vehicle to be creak and rattle free isn't being a car snob, its expecting that you get a quality automobile for the price you pay. Saying its okay for a $65k vehicle to creak and rattle is like saying its okay for a brand new roof to leak or for a Rolex to not keep accurate time. Body integrity is part of what you're paying for.

I would take a Navigator over a Lexus or Beamer any day because of the functionality it offers. Are there Lexus that are also functional? Sure, you just better be willing to pay a heck of alot more without any real benefits except for quieter plastic.

It depends on whether you need the functionality or not. If you're shopping for big luxury SUVs the Navigator and the Escalade are pretty much the show. You have to understand though when you get to $65k, most people don't shop for the best deal, they get what they want. What are the "real benefits" to a Navigator over an Expedition? There aren't any, luxury cars aren't about "real benefits" they're just what they're called, luxury cars. Its all about having what you want. When you can afford a $65,000 car you've arrived and the picture looks a lot different.

 

[RedEB]

Its really a wondeful automobile and I doubt I'll ever buy anything else again. I've never driven anything else that I enjoy as much.

I don't doubt that, and I think that's great that you have a vehicle with which you are truly satisfied. But I also think that everybody has their "perfect vehicle" and I personally don't think a Lexus would be mine. When I'm done with dental school and making some money (please pray for me my friends...), I will most likely look at buying a ford, GM or toyota. My preference is for Ford because I like the styling, performance and interior amenities. The Toyos tend to be too stark and the performance has not typically been as strong, but the newer models have something going for them now. GM- a little too plastic for my taste. You want to talk rattles?
I see your point, but I guess I just have different priorities. If plastic creaks a little bit, I really don't care. I hate rattle traps, but a creak here and there really doesn't hurt anything and I would not be willing to pay mucho bucks just to eradicate creaks when some insulation at Home Depot will do the same. My 97 has no creaks or rattles after I made a $25 expenditure at Home Depot. I have driven in my dad's 99 Expedition and that thing is silent. Honestly, I'm not sure how loud the creaks and rattles really are in the navigators/expeditions, but I know my neighbor couldn't be happier with his 04 expedition.
You seem to be a Toyota guy, so obviously you have preferences with that brand. I am biassed with Fords after having had the best experiences with them as opposed to the other brands I have owned (Chevy, Yota, and Ford). I think it depends on personal tastes, but I would never trade in or sell a vehicle for a little creaking here and there.

Wanting your vehicle to be creak and rattle free isn't being a car snob, its expecting that you get a quality automobile for the price you pay. Saying its okay for a $65k vehicle to creak and rattle is like saying its okay for a brand new roof to leak or for a Rolex to not keep accurate time. Body integrity is part of what you're paying for.

Not quite. You are describing failures on the part fo the entire part. Creaking plastic could be as simple as a friction fit not being tightly secured. Just because theere is a creak doesn't mean the body is falling apart or the vehicle is failing. Silence in a vehicle is also in the mind of the beholder. I'm sure I can find a creak on any lexus, they are not handcrafted by God. There will be a creak somewhere, though I'm sure they are resistant, but still....there is plastic. Plastic expands, contracts and Lexus are not an exception to the rule of physics. I'm sure they are a great vehicle and I am glad that you have had a wonderful experience with them, I just think that perhaps you might be a tad biassed toward Toyota (as we all are for some brand or another).

 

[Stephen]

I'm actually not biased towards Toyota at all. My 98 LS400 was the first Toyota I've ever owned. After it I purchased an 01 Toyota Sequoia. I did replace my LS400 with an LS430 but I shopped all over the place, I looked at luxo SUVs (the Navigator, Escalade, LX470), I looked at the BMW 745Li, the Audi A8L, breifly looked at the E and S class Mercedes. When we replaced our Sequoia we left Toyota for Infiniti, I chose the FX35 over another Toyota or an RX330 from Lexus. I think Toyota/Lexus makes a great car but plenty of other companies make great cars too. I REALLY like my FX35, although its not constructed as well as a Lexus the performance and character of the vehicle really make up for it. Talk about a fun vehicle...

There will be a creak somewhere, though I'm sure they are resistant, but still....there is plastic.

I'm talking about creaks and rattles that you can inherantly hear. Come on, you have to concede that an interior that loosens and causes readily perceptable creaks and rattles is not constructed as well as one that does not. Sure plastic is plastic, but some companies take care to examine where interiors start to make noise and create bushings and fittings around them to buffer that noise. Thats simply the definition of quality interior construction.

GM- a little too plastic for my taste. You want to talk rattles?

Oh God lol. I had a 95 Cadillac STS and it was a total peice of garbage when it came to body integrity and rattles. Ford makes a better interior than GM theres no question about that.

When I'm done with dental school and making some money (please pray for me my friends...

I will LOL

 

[RedEB]

I REALLY like my FX35, although its not constructed as well as a Lexus the performance and character of the vehicle really make up for it. Talk about a fun vehicle...

The FX35s are definitely a great vehicle. I would imagine that baby is fun to drive, maybe some day.

I'm talking about creaks and rattles that you can inherantly hear. Come on, you have to concede that an interior that loosens and causes readily perceptable creaks and rattles is not constructed as well as one that does not. Sure plastic is plastic, but some companies take care to examine where interiors start to make noise and create bushings and fittings around them to buffer that noise. Thats simply the definition of quality interior construction.

OK, I get ya. If the vehicle is creaking to the point of absurdity, then there is something definitely wrong. A vehicle fresh, or relatively so, should not be a rattle trap. If the creaking is so audible it is irritating, then I would be an unhappy consumer too. It should be tighter than that, and I would hope that something of that sort would be covered by the warranty.

Oh God lol. I had a 95 Cadillac STS and it was a total peice of garbage when it came to body integrity and rattles. Ford makes a better interior than GM theres no question about that.

What?? I always thought GM just integrated their own brand of modern music in the form of rattles. It kinda reminded me of that broadway show stomp, except with plastic.

 

[Stephen]

The FX35s are definitely a great vehicle. I would imagine that baby is fun to drive, maybe some day.

It is a lot of fun, my wife won't let me get my hands on it often lol. I drove it today because of the snow and had a great time.

It should be tighter than that, and I would hope that something of that sort would be covered by the warranty.

It is covered by the warranty but its usually a catch 22, they go in and fix the rattles but in the process of opening the interior up to get to the components that rattle (often they're ordinary for the model) they create MORE rattles so it usually best to leave them alone.