rear brake line job leaks in 3 places

[idontknow82]

I finished doing new brake lines. Went to try to bleed the things, and it leaks like a sieve in 3 places one is where the long line meets up with the soft line, and than it leaks at the splitter where the hard line goes in to that, and than the other side where the hard line goes to soft line.
How tight do these nuts have to be? The one on the ABS block was really tight, so does it need to be that cranked on to not leak?

 

[J_C]

Not usually. How did you do it? Did you use pre-flared line, or flare it yourself? Those should be double flares, not bubble or single. I assume you put new soft line (hoses) on too so no chance of debris being in the junctions?

I've tried to use the loaner tool from Autozone, that butterfly design similar to the one pictured below and couldn't make a good flare with it often enough to trust that I'd be able to complete a line once it was cut to size.

It didn't grip the line enough unless it was tightened enough to oval the tube (which I could straighten by rotating the tube and tightening on the opposing side but that still left rough marks, almost gouges in it), and if the cut end wasn't perfectly flat (I mean cut face a perfect 90' to the line) then the die mashed it off-center, despite subsequent attempts trying to deburr, chamfer the edges, it didn't matter. Maybe if I had spent an hour per flare but I got fed up with it.

I ended up getting an Eastwood 31244 On Vehicle Flare tool. Night and day difference, I was making better flares immediately.
http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-on-car-flaring-tool-for-3-16-tubing.html

 

[idontknow82]

Yes I flared it myself Yep they are double flares. Every thing is new, no old stuff was usable as it wouldn't come apart. I always put electrical tape over the openings as well. I do have a flare tool like the one in the below picture that I got from amazon.

I will have to look in to getting that one you linked to. Luckily I did leave myself slack just in case problems like this happened.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Not usually. How did you do it? Did you use pre-flaired line, or flair it yourself? Those should be double flairs, not bubble or single. I assume you put new soft line (hoses) on too so no chance of debris being in the junctions?

I've tried to use the loaner tool from Autozone, that butterfly design similar to the one pictured below and couldn't make a good flair with it often enough to trust that I'd be able to complete a line once it was cut to size.

It didn't grip the line enough unless it was tightened enough to oval the tube (which I could straighten by rotating the tube and tightening on the opposing side but that still left rough marks, almost gouges in it), and if the cut end wasn't perfectly flat then the die mashed it off-center, despite subsequent attempts trying to deburr, chamfer the edges, it didn't matter. Maybe if I had spent an hour per flair but I got fed up with it.

I ended up getting an Eastwood 31244 On Vehicle Flair tool. Night and day difference, I was making better flairs immediately.
http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-on-car-flaring-tool-for-3-16-tubing.html

 

[koda2000]

Assuming you flared the lines correctly (and you say you believe you did) the answer is the fittings have to be tight enough to not leak. This can be difficult to do unless you're using line-wrenches, because the relatively small fittings can be rounded off if using a regular open-end wrench. If you used stainless steel lines (I doubt you did) leaks are more common, because stainless steel is a harder material and hard to get to conform and make a good seal. I've done many, many brake line replacements and I'm have never had a difficult time getting them to not leak.

 

[idontknow82]

Assuming you flared the lines correctly (and you say you believe you did) the answer is the fittings have to be tight enough to not leak. This can be difficult to do unless you're using line-wrenches, because the relatively small fittings can be rounded off if using a regular open-end wrench. If you used stainless steel lines (I doubt you did) leaks are more common, because stainless steel is a harder material and hard to get to conform and make a good seal. I've done many, many brake line replacements and I'm have never had a difficult time getting them to not leak.

I only used a short open-end wrench to tighten it so that could of been the problem. I didn't want to over tighten it as I didn't think it would take much. I will add line wrenches to my list as well. So it will sit until June some time now.

 

[J_C]

Although I now have a line wrench that I use, in the past when putting on all new hardware with pre-flared (factory flared) lines I could get away with using an open end wrench, the torque needed to get a good seal wasn't enough to worry me.

If the flares are not perfect then you may need to tighten them more to conform to the junction. If you're using steel line, that takes more torque than with copper nickel (cunifer) line.

 

[koda2000]

I only used a short open-end wrench to tighten it so that could of been the problem. I didn't want to over tighten it as I didn't think it would take much. I will add line wrenches to my list as well. So it will sit until June some time now.

You can buy a set of line-wrenches, or if you know what size(s) you need you can usually find them separately. Line-wrenches are the only way to go any time you're working with brake or other types of line fittings. I've never managed to over tighten/strip a brake line fitting using a line-wrench so you can crank them down pretty good.

 

[J_C]

You can usually find that 3/8" - 7/16" line wrench for around $10 on Amazon, maybe less for a lower quality version at an auto parts store. Amazon even has a 3 piece set for $12, though they had to beef up the head and put big chamfers on it to make up for using lower quality metal so that design won't fit as well in tight spots. I don't "recall" any spots on my '98 that were tight enough that it would matter, but my wrench didn't have the bulbous head design.

https://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-2640-Flare-Wrench-8-Inch/dp/B000NPPAFC

 

[idontknow82]

I can't get them any tighter with the open ended ones. It does appear that it has stopped leaking except for where the main hard line meets up with the soft line hose in that odd spot. It gets old having to get special tools just to finish jobs on this piece of crap.

 

[J_C]

^ I'd be more irritated if it was something unique that only that make uses (which often raises the tool cost too), but 3/16" brake lines are pretty standard and it's the kind of repair I like, one that's inexpensive and DIY within a day (once you have the right tools) and not likely to need done again for the life of the vehicle.

I just did my uncle's rotors and pads a month ago and he told me a shop charged him over $1000 to do new lines and hoses on all 4 wheels.

That seemed high to me, but there's no reason he'd be lying about it. The ~ $900+ cost difference can buy a lot of tools.

 

[koda2000]

If you're going to own an older vehicle (regardless of make) you're going to need to make repairs to it. Brake lines are no big deal for the DIY'er. If you're going to do your own repairs (which I highly recommend) you're going to have to invest in some basic tools. Purchasing a set of line-wrenches is hardly a large expense on "special tools" that you'll probably never have a use for again. If you believe your 2000 Ex is such a piece of crap, get rid of it and buy something newer. Maybe a nice Honda Civic.

 

[idontknow82]

If you're going to own an older vehicle (regardless of make) you're going to need to make repairs to it. Brake lines are no big deal for the DIY'er. If you're going to do your own repairs (which I highly recommend) you're going to have to invest in some basic tools. Purchasing a set of line-wrenches is hardly a large expense on "special tools" that you'll probably never have a use for again. If you believe your 2000 Ex is such a piece of crap, get rid of it and buy something newer. Maybe a nice Honda Civic.

Alright settle down, those were just words of frustration with this job.

Honda civic.....surely you must be kidding. I don't own vehicles withengines in the improper way. Lol.

 

[idontknow82]

Picked up a metric and sae set of wrenches at menards today.

 

[J_C]

I kinda want an old Honda Civic hatchback just for short trips around town where it might get over triple the MPG... but I'd end up hating it.

 

[96eb96]

Tools aren't really expensive with options like Harbor Freight. Even if you spend a grand in tools over time it is not a big deal. It sounds like a lot but if you use those tools to maintain your vehicle in tip top shape, and the tools make it easy to do, it is almost like an investment, not a liability. I also use tools to make home repairs too and save. My neighbor brought his Ford in for an ABS light and ended up with an almost $500 bill for diagnostic and a $70 sensor (discount price). That can buy a lot of tools!

You can always buy a new rig, that $1000 will be vapor in less than two months.

$1000 bucks to change hard lines and hoses sounds about right. You should be tightening those nuts with a flare wrench, you can get a kit at Harbor Freight cheap.

 

[J_C]

^ A lot of people don't think very highly of the Harbor Freight flare wrenches. Take a look at the reviews sorted by lowest rated first:

https://www.harborfreight.com/5-pc-metric-double-end-flare-nut-wrench-set-68866.html

Loose fit, metal flexing, to me it seems like one of the more important times to have a high quality wrench. What I did was wait till I found a Wright Tool wrench on sale on Amazon, was about $13 IIRC, goes on sale for that a couple times a year.

Then again I've never had to touch brake hardware until after rust had already set in so I wanted the best fit and strength possible, that grips on 5 corners/sides instead of 4. A couple times I've had to take a wire brush or file to a nut to get this wrench on but it is very good for its purpose... and made in USA is nice too.

 

[koda2000]

I've always tried to buy good quality tools (not necessary the most expensive, like Snap-On, but I do have some Snap-On tools). Good quality tools will last you a lifetime. I'm still using some tools that I inherited from my father. At this point in my life I have a large mechanic's tool chest, which is pretty much packed full of tools, plus a second smaller chest I keep in my other garage. It's rare that I find I need to purchase more tools these days.

BTW, My eldest daughter and her husband are not car people. Typically they destroy their vehicles after a few years due to neglect. I recommended that they buy Honda's, which they recently did (an Accord and a Civic) but I've also told them that I will not work on them and that they need to get a AAA membership. They do things like run them out of oil, drive them after blowing a coolant hose or breaking a belt and overheating them, get flats and don't have a spare, tire because they never fixed the spare from the last flat they got. They're not stupid people, they're just not car people. To them a car is just an appliance, like a toaster. Use it until it breaks and replace it.

 

[idontknow82]

Picked up a set of masterforce ( made in USA ) SAE and metric flare wrenches at menards on sunday. That is the good news, the bad news is that the splitter came off it's mount. I haven't checked if it can be put back on, or if I will have to replace it out of pocket...Darn china junk. I will try and get a picture up later

 

[J_C]

^ Yeah for that rear wheel splitter (left rear wheel) hose assembly I bought a Wagner "Premium" hose and it came in a Wagner box, but looked exactly like the cheaper Sunsong brand on Rock Auto, and read Sunsong on the rubber hose itself. However despite being cheaper the quality looked okay, except it didn't come with crush washers while both the Wagner and Sunsong had them pictured.

"IF" I recall correctly, the way that junction block is mounted to the bracket, at least on mine, is there's just a stud on the block that was mashed/pressed/beaten/whatever to flare out into a hole in the bracket.

You might be able to take the right shape chisel or punch and get it flared into the bracket again, or use a metal wedge against it while being compressed in a bench vise.

I'd inspect the block very carefully afterwards for cracks if you try to do that, would think about exchanging it if bought locally. I'm no metal expert but it looked more like it was machined rather than cast so probably wouldn't crack.

However, if it's taking that much torque, it may just come off again and you may need to see if the line flare is the problem, needing too much torque to seal.

 

[96eb96]

^ A lot of people don't think very highly of the Harbor Freight flare wrenches. Take a look at the reviews sorted by lowest rated first:

https://www.harborfreight.com/5-pc-metric-double-end-flare-nut-wrench-set-68866.html

Loose fit, metal flexing, to me it seems like one of the more important times to have a high quality wrench. What I did was wait till I found a Wright Tool wrench on sale on Amazon, was about $13 IIRC, goes on sale for that a couple times a year.

Then again I've never had to touch brake hardware until after rust had already set in so I wanted the best fit and strength possible, that grips on 5 corners/sides instead of 4. A couple times I've had to take a wire brush or file to a nut to get this wrench on but it is very good for its purpose... and made in USA is nice too.

Those wrenches look nice! Harbor Freight is YMMV, but overall I've been lucky. Perfect? No. But perfect for a DIYER or even a tech who uses the tool infrequently.

I have the HF set, but I bought it 10 years ago, and I remember paying under $10. It never let me down, and I took off some real rusty flare nuts. I lent it out too. Never had any issue. That being said $10 == minimal quality control, so your experience may be very different. I needed an odd size that wasn't in the set, bought a used snap on one, and the quality to the eye looks almost the same. I used the HF and Snap on one a backup configuration on a very stubborn fitting and both performed identically. Also, wrenches are slightly different, some are a bit thicker, different angles, that difference may mean getting a fitting in tight spot or suffering for hours.

I also have their $15 sawall, the clip that holds the blade broke and I replaced it with a clamp and pin. I use it maybe 2-3X a year, works fine otherwise. If it broke tomorrow I more than got my moneys worth. If I was a pro I would go for a name brand, but probably keep a HF for backup.

Most branded tools in Lowes, HD, Sears, etc are made overseas. They are all made by the same company and rebranded. That company likely contracts out to the same companies that make HF, possibly with different specs. Snap on sells a Blue Point line and some tools are rebranded HF (or identical copies).

No different from the aftermarket parts we buy.

Gearwrench tools are all made in China.