starter issue?

[4D X]

True or false:
If the battery is fully charged, and when starting the relay clicks but does not crank.This means the solinoid or starter is shot, or lose connection? Are these only two possabilities?

 

[imp]

True or false:
If the battery is fully charged, and when starting the relay clicks but does not crank.This means the solinoid or starter is shot, or lose connection? Are these only two possabilities?

No. First, what year and model? Ford discontinued use of the fender-mounted starting solenoid sometime around 2000 or so. If you have a fender-mounted solenoid, then there are 2 solenoids involved, the other is mounted on the starter motor itself.

Generally, if the fender mounted unit clicks very loudly, it's internal contacts are still operable to feed power to the starter. Then, the starter-mounted solenoid pulls the starter-drive gear into mesh with the flywheel gear BEFORE the motor is energized. It starts spinning after engagement, IF the big contacts inside the solenoid are still operable.

If you are brave, you can temporarily "jumper" the heavy leads at the fender solenoid; if the starter turns, the fender mount unit is shot. If it does not turn, the starter is at fault, either because of it's solenoid, or the motor itself: brushes shot, commutator burned. imp

 

[MAS Tequila]

I used to carry an extra solenoid or two back when I was driving the older Mustangs.

A screwdriver across both terminals will also work.

MT

 

[4D X]

I have cross jumped the starter in the past, but i dont like doing it. I have always refered to the fender mounted solinoid as the starter relay. Less confusing. Anyway im going to clean up all contact points on starter and cables and see if it helps. Then it seems you basically just agree with what I said.

 

[imp]

"clean up all contact points on starter"

What do you mean by this? The important contacts in the starter assembly are contained within the solenoid can. The one that connects the motor itself is circular, and supposedly rotates during use, to equalize arc burning of the copper.

Have you ever disassembled one of these? imp

 

[Robman]

"clean up all contact points on starter"

What do you mean by this? The important contacts in the starter assembly are contained within the solenoid can. The one that connects the motor itself is circular, and supposedly rotates during use, to equalize arc burning of the copper.

Have you ever disassembled one of these? imp

I think he means the cable connections.

 

[imp]

I think he means the cable connections.

Right you are, and stupid me for not seeing it! Start with the battery terminals, the posts and insides of the terminals should be clean and bright, not brown or blackened; clean them up. Rare, but I have seen a bad battery connection cause only enough current to flow to cause the solenoid to click, but no more than that. imp

 

[Flash]

I've seen where the cable is corroded up inside the battery cable, not detected by a visual inspection.

 

[koda2000]

1. "Fully charged battery" - How are you measuring this? Volts or AMPS? Volts don't start your engine, AMPS do. Voltage wise, 12.6 volts is fully charged. You can see 12+ volts measuring a battery, but it if drop to 8 volts when you hit the key, the battery is bad.

2. Dirty/corroded battery connections can cause this problem. Sometimes they may look clean but may not be clean enough. Best to remove the cables from the battery and clean the terminals and the battery posts with a battery brush. Do not put grease on the battery posts before installing the terminals. Grease on top is ok.

3. Are your battery cables lumpy? If they are they are corroded under the insulation and should be replaced.

4. A solenoid that clicks loudly is most likely good. You can verify this with a VOM on the starter side of the solenoid when the key I turned to start.

5. Check and clean the connections at the starter. There's also a wire that goes from the starter mounted solenoid to the starter. This short piece of cable is exposed to the elements and often corrodes and rots away, then power is not transferred to the starter motor. Pretty common especially on old starters on rust belt vehicles.

6. If the brushes in the starter motor are worn out, sometimes smacking the starter motor with a hammer will get you going, but the starter needs to be replaced/rebuilt.

7. If there's any doubt regarding the starter motor, remove it, take it to the auto parts store and have it tested. While you're at it have your battery load-tested.

Don't throw money at a problem w/out doing proper diagnosis.

 

[mitch1204]

Good info. Just to add it's easy to rebuild the fender solenoid if you have a riveter. Drill out the four corner rivets and sand clean the copper contacts on the bolt backsides. Then spin the bolt 180° and put it back together. You can get 50% more life out of it if you want to save a few bucks.

The same with the starter. Easy to rebuild yourself. For about $20 you can buy the brushes, starter drive (Bendix) and bushings. At Advance they are only ship to home items. Use coupon code Perkspot for an additional 20% off. It helps recover some of the shipping which is like $6. AutoZone or Napa might have them in stock. Lightly sand the brush contacts on the rotor and lightly grease the end shafts that go in the bushings. Clean the stator and put it back together. Or you can spend $120-$150 for another. Code TRT41 will get you $40 off a $100 plus at Advance online and you can pick it up in the store or get free shipping on that.
I even have a RockAuto discount if you want to shop there.
I'm a tightwad and chose rebuild kits.

Other what's been said make sure the main ground off the battery where it meets the block is clean. That one I've seen before and is easily overlooked. Have someone crank the engine or try at night when it's dark out. Any bad or loose connection will throw a small spark show. Most likely it's bad solenoid contacts or the starter brushes are worn if it's not a connection issue.

 

[4D X]

Thanks for info. this truck has been a crash course in just about every aspect of automotive repair. Im a bit confused about the grounding aspects of this main battery cable. The connection to the Bat. of course. Short wire to grille side ground. Short wire down near the bracket that holds the cable wires near the starter(I think from the relay) and end of Neg. cable.
I took it apart a while ago and cant quite remember removing that short Neg cable from the starter to the back side starter nut you are referring to. Does it have to be there or are the other grounding points enough? or do I just run the Neg. cable end to that starter mounting nut? Electronics defiantly are not my strong suit.

 

[mitch1204]

The main battery ground needs to run to the block and the whole engine then becomes a ground. The same with a little wire off the battery ground if it has one goes to the car body and then the whole car body becomes a ground (chassis ground). This eliminates running unnecessary wires. Some cars might take a big negative wire to the block and ground straps from the block to the body. The same principle all the metal on the car becomes a negative and therefore your wire running is positive, saving a mile of copper and unnecessary weight.
Not to confuse you but there are exceptions where the car's computer uses a ground wire it reads from a sending unit or such. So there are ground wires present. Usually ground wires are solid black, green, gray or white.

 

[4D X]

So to try and parrot what your saying. I should run the Neg. cable end to that back starter mounting nut completing the trifecta body/chassis/block. or do I still have to connect to Negative on the starter and then add that shorter cable extension? Sorry If I'm not picking up on this

 

[koda2000]

You're confusing yourself. The negative cable from the battery needs to be connected to the engine block (anywhere will do). Any small wires originating from the negative side of the battery are not important for the starter motor. The positive cable needs to be connected to the large lug on the starter solenoid (or fender mounted solenoid if your truck has one). When you turn the key to start, power flows from the positive side battery to the ignition switch and then to the "S" side of the starter solenoid to energize it. Once energized the starter solenoid transfers full battery power to the starter motor which then spins the engine.

As you said you hearing the solenoid click, the circuit appears to be complete. If all your connections are clean and tight (and if your battery is good) my guess is your starter is bad. The only way to know for sure is to remove it have it tested.

Have you checked and cleaned your connections as recommended?

 

[4D X]

Yes I did. I pulled the whole thing (Neg. Pos. cable is all taped together with the Fender solenoid connectors) in an harness. I pulled it all out to check for breaks in the wires and re tape it cause it was all dry rotted off there.
I haven't re tested it yet because when I was hooking it back up the Pos. post on the starter solenoid broke off. That plastic I think was brittle from weather. I had to buy a new starter since they are not much more than the actual solenoid that I could find.
Its in the mail. No real time to tinker with rebuild kits etc.
Im under heavy pressure to finish this thing and OMG if every little damn thing goes the way of worst case scenario.
I think it might be cursed sometimes.

 

[4D X]

Emotional roller coaster Im tellin ya. So I get the new starter and install it. I found a ground point on the block but behind the exhaust manny. I turn it over and it starts up,(and is running well surprisingly). Now I'm excited. I shut It down. Check for leaks. Start it again and its running fine but I smell that heat sock material burning and My Cats are covered in Trans fluid I know for sure and shut it down.
I can see that there is still some exposed Bat. wire and adjust the mesh a little more on the wire what I could reach. Checked for leaks again. Try to start it again and all I hear is the solenoid whining. So I went and bought a new relay as well just to be sure. Still the same. Starter not engaging. Do you think I somehow broke this new starter already? Its two days old.
Also If I maybe burned /melted the cable somehow would the starter mounted solenoid even work at all?
Im probably not gonna be working on it again for a day or two till weather warms up a bit more and wanted to get some more thoughts on it till then.