Stock Stall Speed on 5.0 4R70W?

[Mtn8er]

Well here's my new tranny thread, it's finished:

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1798935#post1798935

 

[reserved50]

it runs now, 3 problems, I still need the center console re-installed. it had lifter tick for a few minutes since it sat, bad lifter I guess, and that stupid drain plug I brazed leaks like 2 drips every day .

It has the Alto thinner 8 direct clutch, stock 4 friction reverse clutch stack, stock OD band, stock 350,000kms re-used rev band,350,000km mildly worn bushings, all new electronics including internal harness,make sure you get all new accumulators/pistons, stock 4 friction Int clutch stack, removed wave plate and extra friction/steel forward clutch. PI style stall converter with about 400 extra stall.

Dont remove the forward wave plate unless you like the feel of a bat hitting your head when placing into D ( Im sure this is from the plate removed), instead use the 5.4 truck wave plate if below 500 hp. The converter still creeps the car but it feels like a vehicle with the idle set very low, and you do notice a small amount of slip till its in the power band (not bad for my application). I THINK Roader Runner? torque converters makes something similar to this. The valve body has several useless mods that you can have electronically done also, I recommend harder 2-3 shifts etc with the Alto 8 friction setup since heat/slippage will burn them up. I modified the 1-2, 2-1, 2-3, 3-2 check ball, feed and exhaust holes and 1-2 accumulator springs.

I havent floored it, I'll wait till the center console is fully bolted in.

 

[reserved50]

everythings fine now, only suggestion is leave a wave plate in unless you have a power adder and run slicks or AWD. Without the plate it is a very hard engagement, some say its bareable, but I severly doubt it on the street, get the 5.4 plate for the forward and electronically adjust the firmness of other shifts , line pressure etc. The converter stall I have now is great, it keeps it closer to the power band and if you have the idle cranked it doesnt push the truck at stops.

 

[CDW6212R]

What difference is there with the 5.4 forward wavy plate? I am familiar with the AOD's, but have not followed many changes with the 4R70W's.

 

[reserved50]

I heard the 5.4 plate is stiffer but still abosrbs some shock (like an accumulator), but cant add another forward friction without machining or removing the backing steel (sounds risky). Im going to see if I can reduce pressure from the 4-3 shift and decrease the initial drive/forward engagement pressure. If that doesnt work maybe lower? the 4-3 closed throttle shift point. I heard a lot of tow trucks remove the wave plate and add another friction, after blowing up numerous vehicles (of course it wasnt my fault just metal fatigue ), I remember some had very harsh shifts also (friend said quite a few shops rebuilt them this way).

 

[CDW6212R]

That's interesting, I have some time to think about that one though. I need to collect a last one or two things for my 5R55E and finish that. I'll order some 4R70W parts soon though. I have not seen any new discussions about the blue plates either, I likely will end up with the Alto red frictions.

 

[reserved50]

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/transmission/page9.shtml

heres one version a lot of the car guys use, but Im not sure about removing the backing plate, I personally think the thinner steel cannot keept the pack aligned, beats me. I dont think those valve body mods apply to these trucks, just the early car version so I wouldnt try anything past removing the lower 1-2 and 2-3 spring, the 1-2 hole drilling in the sepertator plate will also cross over for an even harder shift along with the 1-2 spring removal.
I have heard if you are making enough power to slip the frictions or for some reason designed the trans to slip use the blue plates, the blue plates are meant to slip and will not burn up that way, but that slippage will cause heat and wear.
The stock trans with stock frictions can be built to handle over 400hp with just valve body or electronic mods and a large cooler, a lot of people should just do it this way, I was bored so I decided to experiment . I know mine wont last as long but I dont do cross country driving so im not worried. Changing the torque converter made a huge difference for me, it revs up close to the torque peak rpm and revs to redline thru each gear.

 

[CDW6212R]

Thanks for that article, I'll get the 5.4 wave plate, # XL3Z-7E085-A at least. That plate adds .009 in thickness, there is .050 to gain in the piston, and 42 available in the locking ring choices. With that .083 extra space, I wonder how thick a steel and friction are. I wonder if any other thickness forward clutches can be had. Plus I wonder what is the thickness of the normal outer steel, versus a 7 pack normal steel thickness.

If there is the meat left in the normal outer forward steel, I might try to machine that down to fit a sixth steel/friction. The clearance for the normal 5-clutch set is .080, that leaves a little room. That sounds a lot like what was done with the direct drum of AOD's over 15 years ago. I had to have the outer steel machined slightly to get the extra clutches into it.

 

[reserved50]

Alto makes a thinner steel setup, thats the other setup I have heard of that keeps the wave plate Im sure. I can measure the stock friction and steel from a 97 if you want, I have the old parts in good shape still around. Machining the piston may or may not work if anyone takes that route ( didnt work for my direct drum, already too close so iwent with Alto 8 setup), sometimes without the piston in place there still isnt enough room so machining it might not give enough clearance. If the last steel/backing/pressure plate whatever, is cast it might break I think if machined too thin. I personally wouldnt trust a regular steel as a backing plate either, considering the only thing holding that steel back is a 1/8" thickness snap-ring on the outer circumference.

Without my wave plate and an extra steel and friction it came out to about .075", I think I had a medium thickness snap ring in there.

 

[CDW6212R]

It all sounds promising. I want to keep the wave plate, but I would also like an extra friction/steel in there. I appreciate that article, I have those book marked in my 4R70W folder.

Did you measure that clearance with the wave plate crushed? From your test there it looks like the ideal needed extra clearance is (.080-.075) + .071 - .050 - .020(medium snap ring), about .006. That sounds possible to do, can you double check that, are you sure of those numbers? What I see if that is all good is that, by machining the .050 from the piston and using the thin snap ring, an extra friction and steel may go in there.

 

[reserved50]

the measurement I have is with no wave plate, stock snap-ring and an extra steel and friction, thats the "freeplay" I have as of now (tested the same way the direct drum clearance is checked). Stock steel is about .069 and friction was about .060 on my Ford clutch pack. So wave plate was about .120-.130" i guess

 

[CDW6212R]

I see, you have it installed that way, with six frictions, and .075" clearance. Good then, at a glance it looks like .130 is needed per friction/steel. For your combination of parts you needed about .076" of additional clearance to get a 5.4 wave plate in there. If you cut .050 off of the piston, and the snap ring wasn't already the thinnest, you would be close enough to use the wave plate and six frictions. If the final clearance ends up a hair low, machining the outer steel retaining plate slightly would be okay. That's what I'm hoping for.

The wave plates were on that site, listed at .081 for the 5.4 plate. Regards,

 

[reserved50]

assuming the cutting .050 off the piston doesnt let the piston/steel sit below the "teeth" in the case where the bottom of the steel would sit. Some guys have actually machined the upper retaining area for the ring up a little higher. I'll measure my wave plate, I never looked at the 5.4 thickness, just bent on running without one for ***** and giggles. You basically have to take the thing apart to see what you have to start with, only thing in mine that matched any non Ford manual/write-up was that I had a weak one way clutch.

 

[CDW6212R]

Hmm, I think that subject came up when I did my AOD direct drum years ago. I could'nt see cutting the piston. With the forward drum, the wave plate is first to go in. If they cut the piston without using a wave plate, it should take the wave plate better than a normal steel.
Thanks for the inspiration to get to it soon. Regards,

 

[reserved50]

#15 SIX CLUTCH FWD

I suggest the upgrade to STAMPED STEEL forward drum using in AOD's from 90-93 for this upgrade. Packing 5 clutches with the F150 wave spring is easy for holding 450 HP. However if you want that extra clutch for more holding power you can REMOVE the wave spring in lui of and extra clutch. This causes the shift into DRIVE and the downshift from 4th to 3rd to be rather clunky or harsh. To remdy this you should drill a .05" (#55) hole in the fwd piston down inside of the cavities. This will act as a false accumulator and prevent harshness of the shift. Please use a NEW steel plate as your first pressure plate when performing this mod. Final clearance needs to be around .04", this cltuch only disengages for reverse and 4th, so clearance that are tight are okay.

quote off this site


http://www.clickclickracing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2444 might have to subscribe after reading a few pages so save them

Most of it doesnt apply since its for the AOD


What I did was keep the stock idle/in gear rpm (it was over about 200 from stock to keep brake booster working) and added a vacuum pump that most people wont need. The higher stall converter also helped from feeling the initial "D" engagement. For the 4-3 downshift I found lowering the shift point from about 23mph closed throttle to about 17? (still above the 3-2 shift), it softened it down some. Not sure how the mod in the link works, Im guessing it has been well tested.
Before on my AWD it used to slip starting off the line at WOT, it doesnt do that anymore, not sure if the old trans was worn or if it just couldnt handle it.

 

[CDW6212R]

Did you notice that in that article they drill a .050 hole in the forward piston, to soften the forward engagement? That's the man who I have discovered that may help with finding some parts. He told me that he never uses a wave plate in the forward drum. That is a good AOD article, with quite a bit for AODE/4R70W mods. Good find,

 

[reserved50]

yea thats why i pointed it out. I guess you drill right through the piston and a "new" steel covers the hole when completely applied from what i can tell. I think if that first plate was to warp with any heat you will lose most holding power also, but by that point the trans would be toast anyways.
I also found similar issues that he had with other peoples write-ups, that they sounded good on paper but didnt work in reality.

 

[CDW6212R]

Yes, and among the posts it isn't clear what the final clearance should be. There is mention of both a .070 clearance, and .040-.050 elsewhere. I'll ask him some questions as I go along with mine.

 

[scruff]

Do we have 10.5 or 11.5 inch bolt circle converters on our explorers ?
Just looking at converters online.
Thanks