Strange Tranny prob, please help

[Zeos]

Strange Tranny prob, please help UPDATE, NEED MORE INFO

Anyone have any ideas on this one?

Vehicle:
’99 Explorer Sport
2WD
61k miles

Symptoms:

Tranny is delayed shifting from 1-2
On 2-3 it acts as if it’s ‘searching’ for the correct gear, when the ‘normal’ shift point is reached it seems to shift back into 1st gear for a couple of seconds, then changes to the correct gear. After all of this jumping around the remaining shifts seem fine.

I don’t notice any ‘slipping’ when it switches to first in this manner it pulls normally, though the RPM’s are around 4k-4500k because of the false downshift.

History:
Purchased used about 11k miles ago from stealership. Included service records apparently from the original owner indicates tranny fluid changed @ 35000 miles, all other maintenance appears to be in order.

What I’ve done:
Changed fluid and filter, there was what I would consider a ‘normal’ amount off gunk on the magnet in the pan. Everything else internally appeared immaculate.
Took it to Autozone to have it checked out with their code reader, there were no codes indicated.
I did a lot of searching around here and came across a few posts indicating the VSS, apparently, the 99 models have the RAB sensor perform this function, disconnected the RAB in hopes of forcing the computer to put the tranny in some kind of failsafe mode. I thought d/c’ing this connector would disable the speedometer though? It continued to function as normal (scratches head)

It’s performed flawlessly up to this point, with the exception of a stuck open thermostat from the day I brought it home (immediately replaced).

The only other oddity is that since this has been happening there has been a sound coming from one of the wheels (haven’t been able to pin it down exactly yet). It sounds like a ‘grinding’ noise and is only noticeable at very low speed (<10mph) when the brake is applied. –Reason I added this is…. I only noticed this sound after the tranny started acting funny…. I guess I’m wondering now if there is a sensor on one of the wheels which could have broken/come loose/whatever that could be causing both problems.

I’m fairly mechanically inclined, though I’ve never torn into an auto tranny before, the chiltons book I’ve got is pretty much useless here …for automatics it basically says “too complicated, take it to a shop” …Unfortunately, money is REALLY tight at the moment, so I’ve got to try and figure something out with this thing…


TIA for any ideas

 

[Opera House]

There is a TSB on the 99 5R55E

That says the bracket that holds the EPC solenoid cracks and it backs out. This transmission also has many reports of the valve body gaskets blowing out because of increased spacing between bolts. I found all of the valve body bolts loose on my 97. They suggest using locating pins when replacing the gasket ($30 for pins). These can be made from 5 & 6 mm bolts that you slot and bevel the flat shank. Get an ATSG manual $16 first, good diagnostics. Unless you see tons of metal, the problems are all in the valve body. I bought a spare '99 (52K) transmission with a bad gasket just for parts. The EPC solenoid is almost $200 for this puppy! Suggest that at this time gaskets only be bought from dealer. They may have an updated seperator plate. If you still have speed, you pulled the wrong connector.

 

[Zeos]

Thanks for the tips, unfortunatly I came to the realization that this is over my head mechanically. Took it in to a shop yesterday. They're telling me it needs a teardown to the tune of over $1700. I don't know what I'm going to do with this thing...I don't have the cash for the work so I guess I'm basically screwed here...

 

[SteveVB]

Find aother shop ask them to run a pressure test and the diagniostics see what they come up with?

What made the other shop want to tear it down- was that just their course of business. Its more profitable for them to pull it and replace a few parts than to spend some time diagnosing it.
Specifically what did they find that tells them they need to tear it apart?

I would look for another shop.

 

[Opera House]

That is way out of line

It is too new for clutch seals and the fluid looks good. A Ford dealer would only charge you about $800 for valve body work. There is hardly any chance this transmission would have to be pulled. Likely all it needs is a new gasket.

 

[Zeos]

Excuse my ignorance of Auto Transmissions, but I'll try and explain what they told me...

They hooked it up to the computer and drove it and it started doing it's thing. Appearantly the computer told them that there was something wrong with second gear, and they think it's the clutch packs.

Again, this isn't verbatim from them, but this is generally what they told me....At this point I'm looking into replacing the tranny (this much I can do myself), I found a unit with 4000 miles on it for $1200 right now that looks like the best deal...

Unfortunatly, the only other transmission shops around here are AAMCO, and the dealer..This place came recommended by a few people I know, and I had to take it quite a distance there...I dunno what I'm going to do now....due to a few other things going on I'm pretty much broke at the moment, so I'm basically screwed

 

[SteveVB]

If you think you can replace the tranny...

Take it to the dealer for another opinion. They will have available to them the diagnostic tools and any TSBs computer upgrades etc that may help pin point the problem. I would spend the additional money for another opinion before I spent 1200 bucks for a trans of unknown origin and untold headaches getting it in and out of the vehicle. That 1200 bucks isnt much of a deal in my book, you are only getting paid 400 for the R&R and the trans may not fix the problems since you have no idea of the condition - even with a warranty you still have to put it in and pull it out if its a no go. If you are not getting a warranty on the trans then I wouldnt even touch it.

If you think you can replace the tranny then I would suggest to you that you have very little to loose and a bunch to gain by pulling the pan and replacing the valve body gasket and making sure the valve body bolts are torqued as speced. If you F it up you still get to replace the tranny , but if it works then you saved yourself maybe a grand and some time.

Something to think about, but I would take it to Ford first and ask specific questions about what is wrong and why they think the repair they propose will fix it. Ask lots of questions- you paid them for the diagnostic get your moneys worth. Always pay for diagnostic work - never get a free check thats just an advertising/ marketing tool. You get basically nothing for it- the same as you put into it

 

[Zeos]

Thanks again for the ideas, I think you might be on to something here. I'm going to try to pull the pan again and have a look around. Now the question is, what should I be looking for...I don't have a manual for the tranny (and really don't have time to wait for one to arrive if I order as I'm using a borrowed vehicle for a few days so I don't mess things up any more than they already are)

Anyone know the correct torque specs who would be willing to share? I have the tools...just need info on this beast (if it were a motorcycle I'd have already had it into a million pieces) I guess I might as well have a look inside.

 

[Opera House]

Torque spec

The pan is 8-10 ft-lb. The valve body is 7-8 ft-lb which is just a good snug. Remember there is a steel seperator plate between the valve body gaskets. This plate extends under the low/reverse servo, plate with four bolts. Tighten these too. There is a reported weakness around the low/reverse servo because of the seperation between bolts. Again, look for solenoids backing out. A manual is available at bulkpart.com for $16. Order a couple SPX filters at the fantastic price of $10, you can always use them. You have to order the pan gasket & O rings seperately. O rings you can just transfer from old filter. At this time I would only get valve body gaskets from the dealer because of updates. There may even be a new seperator plate. Second is made from the low gear and the overdrive. Was the OD still working. Third is the intermediate band, this used to be second. I bought a spare '99 transmision and it was a fraction of your quoted price. They never seem available when you need them.

 

[Zeos]

OD Appears to be working perfectly, quickly engaging and disengaging with the button. Though I did notice one odd thing, it no longer wants to kick to "passing gear" it just keeps pulling in OD instead of downshifting

I must've done something REALLY crappy in a previous life to deserve this

 

[Opera House]

The transmission phobia

Like the TV comercial for AAMCO. "Gee dad, What do you use to fix transmissions?" Father says, " Son, I'm just too stupid to work on those." Transmissions are something most people don't think about till there is a problem. Certainly, pulling a transmission is a lot more work than many want to do. The logistics are certainly a problem for many. I think most of us start rebuilding our own transmissions when economically nothing else is viable and the vehicle is almost a write off. A vehicle with the transmission out is actually worth more. Once you've done it you will wonder what all the fuss is about. I later found out about a dozen people I know have worked on them, even my dentist. Pretty much, Form follows function. You do need a manual and there is a lot of information on the internet. I'm going to get a spare valve body gasket set for my '97 before I travel next spring. This is something I'd be able to do in the driveway of the summer camp. I think this falls in the relm of an anoyance unless you find a bunch of metal shavings or a band strut.

 

[Brandons]

Im having the same problem with my 94, its not the tranny i believe, but its the engine performance (like fuel filter, MAF, muffler, anything like that) and im currently working on fixing it. I cleaned the MAF sensor which helped with the high end gears, but its kick off is still low, which is probably another engine problem (injectors, plugs) and the seal is leaking (no real effect yet) anyways im probably not right, but its whats haunting me.

Good luck anyways

 

[Zeos]

Well, I took it into a friends (heated thank god) garage today, on the way there I lost reverse almost completely. It worked fine backing out of my driveway, but after stopping to grab another filter it didn't want to back up unless revved (10 miles or so down the road).

1st and second work like a champ, 3rd is still acting up, 4th is fine and od works for the most part, though it's slipping a bit.

I got it to the garage and took yet another tranny fluid bath (at least I had heat), -There is still no notable metal (or anything else in the pan...pulled the filter and started checking the torque on the valve body bolts, almost all were loose to some extent. I tightened them to spec. and pulled all of the servo's one by one to test them...when applying battery power to each one they 'clicked' ...so they check out ok.

Now, I'm not sure which one it is, the one on the passenger side of the tranny towards the rear is acting a little strange. (It's the "different" one with what looks like filter mesh on the end -anyone know which this one is? I'm thinking TCC, from the faint drawings I've been able to locate.)

At any rate, I hook it up to the battery, it clicks ok, but the little "pin" on the end of it doesn't "pull" in every time. maybe once out of 10 times or so does it seem to completely open, even though it's clicking. I checked the resistance across the coil and it's 4.3 ohms ...does anyone happen to know if this is right? I don't want to put it back together if this part is bad, just to have to throw away more fluid

Thanks for all the help, it's greatly appreciated!
Any more ideas would be appreciated

edit...

Wanted to add, that engine braking in 1st gear works perfectly if it matters....

 

[Opera House]

Solenoids

The one closest to the engine is the TCC, then Shift Solenoid B, Shift Solenoid D / Coast Clutch, on the end is the EPC Electronic Pressure Control. The EPC is indeed different and it costs four times what the other ones do. This has a low resistance/inductance because it is pulse width modulated to vary the pressure. It can not take 12V for very long without burning out and is designed as a variable pressure regulator. Can't tell you much more because I only have a few pages myself. I only have a ten minute drive to pick up a manual when I need one so I haven't botherd to get one for this transmission yet. As you have noticed, you can get into trouble without a manual. Bolt lengths are all different and there are little check valves that will fly out of the body. Not a problem if you have a book that tells you where. If just third is the problem, the intermediate band could have snapped. This is the second external servo piston from the front. You should be able to look up from the pan through a passage and see the band and a little cast rectangular strut. This is normally pretty restrained. If you can feel any movement in it the band may have snapped. The band is located just behind the center support after the overdrive section (clutch and planetary). This is almost identicle to the A4LD in construction. Read "Removing the transmission" on page 2 of this thread for an idea.
Thread is located at:

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60887&goto=newpost

Check for a local ATC ot other transmission part distributor to get a manual quick. I sounds as if there is no damage being done to the transmission by driving it since the fluid id clean and no obvious signs of metal.

 

[Zeos]

Thanks for the info, you're help here is REALLY appreciated.

I'm at work now. Going to try to get back at the thing either tonight or tomorrow morning. I'll have a closer look around and see what I find up there.

I've got a manual on order, as I can't locate one locally. What are the risks with unbolting the valve body to replace the gasket (as far as things comming out of the body) when it's pulled off? I want to check on / replace the gasket and seperator plate, but am hesitant to remove it further without the manual incase something falls out into my lap

Again, thanks for the help, and I hate to be a PITA, but I think this thing is salvagable (judging from the lack of metal anywhere), even if I have to tear it apart myself.

 

[Opera House]

You got me swinging!

First you said you had delayed shifts 1-2 et all and now you say only 3 is bad. The intermediate band is only used in third so that makes it pretty suspect when your "mechanic" also said it had a problem. If it had multiple other problems then I would be inclined toward a gasket. I'd fill it with fluid and drive it to get some better diagnostics. Someone had a link to a flow chart here recently. Of note they said that under light load the transmission can shift from 1 to 3 for better economy. Certainly that could fool you into thinking there was a 1-2 shift problem.

 

[Zeos]

I just found that chart as well, it looks like you may be right. I didn't realize it was skipping 2nd under low load. I'm going to go back up there shortly and put everything back together and see what I can figure out with it. It's starting to look more and more like a teardown is comming.

 

[Zeos]

Well, it looks like it's going to require a teardown afterall. After putting it all back together it seemed to work a little better for a few miles, but as soon as it heated up it started going to hell again

I pulled the pan again and found quite a bit of what looked like clutch friction material in the fluid and all over the pan.

I found a 'used' tranny for $650 which has 6k miles on it, so I'm picking it up this week, once I get them swapped out I'm going to tear down this one and tackle the rebuild myself. At least now I'll have a "spare" that I can install when it happens again.

Thanks again for all you're help, esp. Opera House. I know how frustrating it can be trying to help people out over the 'net as I'm usually the one helping people with their motorcycle probs on my "home messageboard", so I appreciate your patience. I'm sure I'll have more ?'s once I get into the teardown. Hopefully I havn't driven you too crazy

 

[Lee S.]

Re: You got me swinging!

Originally posted by Opera House
First you said you had delayed shifts 1-2 et all and now you say only 3 is bad. The intermediate band is only used in third so that makes it pretty suspect when your "mechanic" also said it had a problem. If it had multiple other problems then I would be inclined toward a gasket. I'd fill it with fluid and drive it to get some better diagnostics. Someone had a link to a flow chart here recently. Of note they said that under light load the transmission can shift from 1 to 3 for better economy. Certainly that could fool you into thinking there was a 1-2 shift problem.

Hate to bring up an old thread but does anyone know where this 'flow chart' link is? I seem to be having 1 to 2 shift problems and I 'm hoping i'm just being fooled.

Thanks,

Lee

 

[Opera House]

This only gives the speed shift points not internal logic. 5R55E shift strategy link..

http://www.apra.org/GlobalConnectio...G figure2.jpg