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Supercharger

sundown

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Montpelier, Vermont
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96 Sport
This months Off Road magazine has an article about BBK's new super charger for the 4.0L engine. They claim that it bumps it up past the 5.0L in torque/horsepower, while maintaining the mileage of the 6 cylinder....

OK, how does that work? How can you get something for nothing? How can you get more power/torque, with the same mileage? Does anyone have any experience with this or any other supercharger kit? Wouldn't I be money ahead to just swap in a 5.0L from a wreck? (They want 3k for the kit)
 



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Originally posted by sundown
This months Off Road magazine has an article about BBK's new super charger for the 4.0L engine. They claim that it bumps it up past the 5.0L in torque/horsepower, while maintaining the mileage of the 6 cylinder....

OK, how does that work? How can you get something for nothing? How can you get more power/torque, with the same mileage? Does anyone have any experience with this or any other supercharger kit? Wouldn't I be money ahead to just swap in a 5.0L from a wreck? (They want 3k for the kit)

The supercharger doesn't do anything until you put your foot in it. So, during normal driving it doesn't use anymore fuel. If you use your supercharger frequently then you will see a reduction in mileage. A supercharger is much easier to put on than a new engine which would require new harness, accessories, transmission, computer, ect.
 






Supercharger...

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the turbocharger that doesn't consume fuel until you put your foot on it. The supercharger is always running, so in a sens it should consume more fuel than normal(a little bit), and if you put your foot to it then power goes to the wheels and money into the gas tank.
 






The supercharger is essentially an air pump which increases the air pressure in the intake manifold and accordingly more pounds of air flow through the cylinder intake valves and as there are about 14.7 lbs of air for every lb of fuel, this "crams" more air and fuel in the combustion chamber(compared to a non-supercharged engine). I think this sort of increases the "effective" compression ratio and may require using higher octane gasoline to prevent excessive knock (actually it does not increase the compression ratio, just increases the air or gas pressure in the combustion chamber before the piston compression stroke). There are the positive displacement air pump (Eaton, BBK, etc.) supercharger which provide higher air pressures at lower RPMs compared to turbochargers. I am not sure how they can get the same miliage as a non-supercharged engine as this would seem to require the engine to run leaner (higher air to fuel ratio). I sure would like to hear from someone who has installed a BBK unit on a 4.0L Ford Explorer.
Mike in Seattle with 91 XLT 4x4
 






Re: Supercharger...

Originally posted by BExplorer
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the turbocharger that doesn't consume fuel until you put your foot on it. The supercharger is always running, so in a sens it should consume more fuel than normal(a little bit), and if you put your foot to it then power goes to the wheels and money into the gas tank.

True, but the review that I read a few days ago claimed that under normal cruising conditions, the SC only requires 4HP to turn. So technically yes, you loose 4HP, but realistically, I don't think most people would see the difference during their MPG calculations. The site that did the review, did state though that many people will see a reduction in fuel mileage only because it is so fun to put your foot in it when taking off.
 






While I have not used the BBK supercharger, I did have a Vortech supercharger on the Beast for about 40,000 miles. During that time, I averaged about 15mpg. Now keep in mind that the Beast weighs about 5500lbs. Since removing the supercharger (more trouble with the Vortech unit than I care to talk about), my mileage has averaged 13mpg.

The reason for the difference is simple. With the higher hp, you do not have to use as much throttle....... thus lower fuel consumption. Naturally aspirated, you practically have it floored all the time = suck fuel.

I had the same results with my Mustang. Stock, with 225hp (and 2.73 gears), she would get about 18mpg in the city and 23 on the hwy. With 300hp and 3.55 gears, I never got below 20mpg in the city and would get upward of 28mpg on the highway. Bullshit you say....... I beg not. I checked every tank for mileage.

As for the need for premium fuel, of course. However, if you are already running a chip for your computer, you need Premium anyway.

I will someday get the BBK for the Beast.
 






For all intent and purpose, turbos and superchargers are the same thing. They both compress air before feeding it into the intake manifold. The main difference is that turbos work off of exhaust and superchargers are belt driven. It is true that superchargers drain a small amount of HP from the motor. Just like running the AC. The difference of course is that a good supercharger can give you nearly a 50% boost in HP. Especially if it's intercooled.
 






Turbochargers and Superchargers

It is my understanding that the positive displacement (Rootsmeter principle) Superchargers such as BBK and Eaton provide increased air pressure and flow at low engine RPM and high RPM (and accordingly increased HP all along the RPM range) whereas turbochargers depend on the high exhaust gas flowrate and hence are effective primarily at the high RPM and high exhaust gas flow rate. And the Vortech supercharger is reported to be effective mostly at the higher RPM. However, I do not have any of these systems. So, Gloria, please correct or comment on this. It is my understanding that for low RPM high torque (i.e. trail or rough road 4 wheeling) one should use a positive displacement supercharger such as is furnished by Eaton or BBK. And Gloria, what is your "Beast"? I saw an article in an older issue (maybe 2 years ago) of the Four Wheeler or 4 Wheel magazine about one of your rigs (yes, I save those issues to refer to periodically about stuff). Mike with 91 XLT 4x4 in Seattle
 






The Beast is the Explorer you saw.

The BBK would be far superior to the Vortech for "felt" acceleration. This is due to its low rpm power characteristics. The Vortech does not come "on" boost till about 3000 rpm. In a vehicle as big and heavy as an Explorer, this is just way too high. Especially when you consider that the motor only revs to about 5000 rpm.

The BBK should offer better fuel economy than the Vortech also, since it comes on boost that much earlier. This means you do not have to use as much throttle, just to get the vehicle moving.

Another major advantage to the BBK is its packaging. Simple installation, and a clean engine bay. The Vortech, as in other centrifugal superchargers cause a snakes nest of tubing under the hood of an Explorer/Ranger. All of the resulting connections just beg to work themselves loose with all the movements of the body/engine/frame in hard wheeling. When they do come loose, this causes unmetered air. This unmetered air makes the engine now want to run. Not fun.

Ooops, said I wasn't going to rant on the Vortech. :o)
Hey, it was just a small rant........ have much worse. :D
 






Originally posted by Extreme4x4
Another major advantage to the BBK is its packaging. Simple installation, and a clean engine bay. The Vortech, as in other centrifugal superchargers cause a snakes nest of tubing under the hood of an Explorer/Ranger. All of the resulting connections just beg to work themselves loose with all the movements of the body/engine/frame in hard wheeling. When they do come loose, this causes unmetered air. This unmetered air makes the engine now want to run. Not fun.

:nono:

There are advantages to both types of superchargers. BBKs offer easy install. You can't intercool a BBK. You get about 6 pounds of boost and that’s that (unless you change the pulley size and then you can only expect a nominal increase in boost). The Vortech style supercharger allows for much higher boost capabilities and more flexability. But they are more difficult to install. And as far as the plumbing goes, as long as you do the install correctly, you won't have a mess of tubes to come loose.

You can get turbos that produce the desired HP and/or torque at whatever RPM you like. It all depends on the spooler size. Are you looking for low-end torque and fast acceleration or high-end speed? Turbos offer the greatest performance capabilities. There longevity and heat tolerances are unmatched by superchargers. Fabricating a turbocharger system is the project from hell though. Very expensive and complicated. But once you get a turbo system performing correctly, you'll out perform any supercharger (on smaller motors like the 4.0 that is)

Just my 2 cents.
 






Cameron, sorry to be the voice of dissention here, but the connections on the Vortech system will eventually leak no matter what you do. This is especially the case on a truck that is 4wheeled VERY hard. We are talking the slow, 4.0-5.0 rockcrawling trails. The engine is torqued hard a great deal of the time. While it did not happen real often, it did happen enough to be annoying.

Believe me, I know how to do something as simple as install a supercharger. However, before you lay blame on the install, perhaps you should take measurements on some of the pieces from Vortech. It was not possible to have more overlap of tubing and rubber connectors than what I had...... or it would not have fit. While the unmetered air problem only occurred about 5 times in the 40,000 miles I ran it, this is still deemed unsatisfactory.

Since you wish to talk about only one aspect of my post, I guess I need to make myself more clear. My complaints against Vortech do not start, or stop with the air leak problems. Also, with the compressor that is/was (may have changed since then, was a V1 compressor) shipped with the Vortech kit, you will make about 4.5-5 lbs of boost. If you get the smaller 6-rib pulley offered by Vortech, you will get about 1 pound more. If you have a custom 6-rib pulley made, you will get 2 pounds more boost than stock. However, if you get this custom pulley, you will overspin the compressor. This will cause the bearings to blow out in about 20,000 miles ($495 fix, from Vortech only, as the bearings are not available on the open market)

So lets begin with the problems:
1) Kit was not shipped with the oil return hardware. Would have taken days..... thus, a quick trip to PepBoys solved this problem.
2) The plastic positive side discharge hose would not clear the master cylinder. This was a major problem, probably (I hope) due to the early production of the kit. To solve this one, we needed to shim the master cylinder at an angle and grind the corner off of it.
3) This same plastic positive side discharge hose would not stay on the compressor. Hard plastic trying to fit on 1/2" flange with no connecting hardware (can you say piss poor design). This was also a major problem. This was solved by using a diesel truck turbo elbow (since this was the only thing that would hold up to the pressure). The elbow was cut, as was the plastic tube, and they were put together. This solved the connecting problem.
4) This same plastic positive side discharge hose collapsed 2 times. Needless to say, this caused a massive driveability problem. Got another one from Vortech, but had to wait (could not drive the truck).
5) The people at Vortech are a$$holes. They wouldn't just admit there was a problem with the parts. You would have to argue...... and argue...... and explain..... to person after person, who didn't have a clue about the kit you were talking about. Nor did they know anything about the engine it was being put on.

Now, don't get me wrong, the Vortech supercharger kit would probably be wonderful in a street driven truck. Also, it works great in the 5.0 Mustangs. However, I took a major loss on it, JUST TO BE RID OF IT.

Hopefully Vortech has corrected those early problems. Hopefully they have hired some people who are not so condescending and arrogant. Hopefully they looked up the term CUSTOMER SERVICE, in the dictionary. Of course, maybe I was just the lucky one in dealing with them, because I am a girl who has a clue.

Enough of that.

Yes a turbo is alot more efficient. They are also a ***** to design a kit for. My significant other is a turbo man, and has the right connections to get it done right. However, I would still like the BBK. Instant boost down low. I do not have any desire to play drag race woman. :D

Just my personal experience.
 






Extreme4x4,

Excellent point about the Vortech but I never meant to imply that the Vortech was better then the BBK, only that you have more flexibility with it. I guess using that finger waiving icon put a condescending overtone on my post.

You said " The Vortech, as in other centrifugal superchargers cause a snakes nest of tubing under the hood of an Explorer/Ranger" So I replied "as long as you do the install correctly, you won't have a mess of tubes to come loose" and I stand by that. Of course with extreme off roading, things come loose. Hell, everything comes loose after a day of off roading :D I meant to imply that under normal driving conditions and even light off roading, you shouldn't have any problems. Also, I was talking about centrifugal superchargers in general and that’s why I said "Vortech type superchargers", as I have no experience with Vortech. I'll take you word there shortcomings. I just read an article where a guy got 34 pounds of boost out of a centrifugal supercharger. I think it was Popular Hot Roding magazine? It's this months issue and the car is featured on the cover. Anyway, I'm not suggesting you shouldn’t buy the BBK. I'm sure they are very reliable, I only wished to point out the pros and cons of the different ways of providing boost.

Good luck with the install. I can't wait to se the dyno (assuming of course you do one).
 






Ya know...everyone fights for the BBK.. but...IS IT OUT YET!!!!???? Man... thats the longest wait ever... last time I called it wasnt out yet and it would be a "few weeks" hmmm... anybody know? not that I have 3 grand burning in my pocket...
 






BBK has been blowing smoke for almost 2 years now

regarding the release of the 4.0 kit. I waited about a few months and decided they were delaying for a reason. I finally heard that they couldn't get fuel problems resolved. But if you know it's not ready then stop BS'ing the public and fix it. I like my Vortech and am very glad I'm still not waiting on BBK before making a decision!
 






Last time I called.. .a few weeks ago.. they said the fuel problems had been worked out and now they were having problems getting parts from a supplier....

nick
 






i found the article in truckin magazine on the

bbkhttp://www.gr8ride.com/cgi-bin/pm/common/prodReview.jsp?channel=Truckin&community=Street&oid=20227

ive been lookin at the bbk for quite a while now, also looked at the vortech. im wantin to do an easy install thats gonna give me gobs of bottom end power and the bbk looks like it would do a better job if they could ever make it available
 












Ya know, if the BBK is for real and it kick ass I may drop the idea of the V-8 swap. Yes I know this is extensive but then again, I'd end up with a nearly bullit proof motor and trans, but the list of mods and price are incredible. I noticed in that BBK review how they say the strapped it down on the dyno, but the never gave us the dyno results? approx price? I never really looked too far into the whole supercharger/turbo idea but like I said if the BBK is for real, then it would mean I'de just end up rebuliding my 4.0 and maybe get some head work done ect..but I dunno...It sounds like BBK is beatin arount the bush with this supercharger....does anyone know where I can get info on this BBK charger?
Thanks.....Pete
 






Man...I just sit there and stare at that supercharger... I WANT!!! Maybe we should have a harass BBK week... where we call... and just keep asking when the supercharger is going to be ready.. .maybe they will get tired of lying to us. by the way... has anyone gotten any new info on the supercharger? Or are they still saying 1-2 weeks?

nick
 



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Eaton Supercharger

Apparently the Eaton furnishes the supercharger used in the "proposed" BBK supercharger system for the Ford Explorer V6. Looking at the Eaton internet site, probably their model 62 is the one to be used. I would guess that Eaton can supply the supercharger - but something must not be working OK in the development of the revised computer module-sensor system which is needed to make the engine function OK. Now if someone has the identity of who owns BBK or who is the top management, maybe we could pry some information out of them. Link to Eaton is:
Dead Link Removed
Mike with 91 XLT 4x4 in a cold wet Seattle
 






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