"Texans take high road a tad too high" -- Denver Post, 8-3-2000

[mmpc]

A better article...

More info and a better article can be found at: Dead Link Removed

 

[Maniak]

Personally I don't agree with the Colorado Assoc of 4WD not helping them. I do believe that it would have been much worse if they tried to get the vehicles down by themselves and had them roll. The Colorado Assoc of 4wd could have helped bring them down and still not condoned(sp?) what they had done.

I'm sure having the vehicles rolling down the mountain would have done more damage then having them removed in a controlled fashion.

 

[mattadams]

It is purely political. I don't mean to sound pessimistic but I can almost guarantee what would've happen had the Colorado Assocation helped with the extrication. The news media would report that the four-wheeling community was helping out yet another enthusiast who was out there destroying terrain, and would og into the damage caused to the terrain by four-wheelers all over the state, and would demand instant laws banning four-wheelers from that mountain and many others, and they wouldn't stop until all the trails were shut down and the wilderness could only be harmed by animals and nature. Would it have been nice of them to help them down? Of course. I don't think they were trying to be jerks. I just think they were looking out for their best interests. Look at it this way, does the NRA help out people who are shot and killed by violence? Not really... they rally for their right to bear arms, just like the colorado association of four-wheel drive clubs rallys to keep trails open. Violence hurts the NRA, just like these acts of stupidity hurt the entire four-wheeling community. Ok the wording on that was all wrong but I couldn't think of a better way of putting it .

[Edited by mattadams on 08-07-2000 at 12:59 PM]

 

[mmpc]

Put another way...

OK, I think we all agree, it would've been the nice thing to do and might have even helped the environment in the long run. But as Matt said, it's all about association. When a plane crashes and identifiable pieces of the fuselage remain, one of the first things the airline does is paint over their logo. Why? Because when footage of the crash plays over and over on the news, the public could begin (subconciously perhaps) to associate that airline with plane crashes.

Now this obviously isn't as grave a situation, but comparisons of association can be made. Had the Colorado 4x4 Club been involved in removal efforts, environmentalists and the media could easily couch the story like: Members of the Off-Road Association helped out some of their own last weekend by assisting in the removal of vehicles from Houghton Mountain. A Jeep and a Dodge pickup became stuck after their irresponsible drivers illegally left a marked trail, defacing the tundra...blah, blah, blah.

Were that to happen, the Colorado Assoc. would be linked inexorably to these nimrods in newspapers from sea to shining sea. While there's no doubt it would've been the nice thing for them to do, it would serve to discredit their reputation in general, while giving environmentalists another reason to *****...

 

[Gofast]

Political? Yes!

This has brought up some very good points. I have mixed emotions bought this as well. I always want to jump in and help people, specially if they are out on a limb and really need the help. However, I understand the delimma that the Association is in. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The only saving grace really was these guys were from another state. Can you imagine what would happen if they were members of that association? It only takes a few bad apples to ruin it all for the rest of us.

I have seen this happen here in Dallas. We just had a local trail area closed due to theft,vandalism etc. Not good for those of us who follow the rules. I also enjoy and spend a lot of time on PWC's ( Personal Watercraft ). How many of you have had a bad experience with one of these guys? Well, I'm guilty by association most of the time. I've been yelled at pulling into marinas for exceeding the wake,getting to close to other boats and splashing people. Did I do it? NO! But, I'm treated like I did, because we all look the same out there. A lot of State & National parks are out of bounds now because of there behavior.

Don't let this happen to our Offroading Spots! Elections are coming up, take an active part in running your country. Vote!

Rob "On the soapbox" Robertson

 

[Peter Weber]

I kind of have a problem with the stand the Colorado Assoc of 4WD took.
Sure, these people did something they shouldn't have. But I get the impression that it wasn't done on purpose. They tried to do something that they thought they could and it turned out that they were wrong.

The Colorado Assoc of 4WD could've made their statement that they don't condone this kind of activity. Then they could've gone in, helped these people and made a big thing about how they (in the process of helping) pointed out all the things that were done wrong and educated the poor guys on the right approach to 4-wheeling.

Matt, remember the Land Cruiser on our way to Kane Creek. Those guys got in over over their head. We all thought they were stupid because of how unprepared they were. But you pulled him out anyway. When Tom Davis and RangerX rolled, we didn't stand around and said: 'Hey, these guys are stupid, they never should have attempted this' and left them to their own devices. I thought we're supposed to stick together and help each other out in a jam. And that's what the Colorado Assoc of 4WD didn't do. Sorry, that's not the kind of organization that I would want to be associated with.
Just my personal opinion. Everybody else is entitled to theirs.

 

[rustytr]

Thanks Chris that article filled me in on exactly what I wanted to know

 

[mattadams]

Peter, the difference here being that the guys in the land cruiser were still being legal, they weren't tearing new trails or going off on private property endangering their own lives. Granted if I was up in Silverton near them I probably would've at least tried what I could do to help them out, I'm not one to leave people stranded. It's kind of a tough situation I suppose. If asked to help get them out I probably would have, but I support teh Colorado ASsociation for not wanting to help them at the same time. If it wasn't for the fact that four-wheelers are already on such a limb at the danger of losing hundreds of trails I'd probably say it was no big deal, but we've got practically everybody EXCEPT the four-wheeling community in support of closing down these trails, and until things like this happen many people will say "well at least four-wheelers in general are responsible and care about the environment", but when this happens everyones minds start changing and they start voting for Al Gore. When's the last time you saw on the news one of the massive trail cleanups the colorado four-wheel drive clubs do about every weekend? Sometimes removing abandoned couches, cars, old beat-up tires that non-responsible people just take out on these trails and pitch, because they can't get rid of them otherwise. Of course you don't hear about it, you hear about all the crap on the trails. The news media is extremely biased and will use any fuel for their fire they can get. I guess that's why I'm so worried about the situation. The general public will see it and think that this happens on a regular basis, and in the future when land closing votes come up, or presidential elections come up, one man will say "I think we should od whatever we can to keep people from being able to ruin our wilderness" and the general public will say "oh yeah like those guys in silverton who are like all other four-wheelers, tearing up the land!"

The court of public opinion, that's what I'm talking about.

[Edited by mattadams on 08-07-2000 at 02:22 PM]

 

[Peter Weber]

Matt, I agree with your points about all the good the Colorado Assoc of 4WD does. But I think they could've handled this better and come away as the good guys by doing something a bunch of other people said couldn't (or shouldn't) be done and at the same time look like a very responsible organization that helps out regardless when somebody gets into trouble.

 

[tdavis]

pictures!

Check these out:

Dead Link Removed

Wow!

 

[mmpc]

Sorry to be a bit long...

Isn't it amazing how different angles on the same scene can make it look like either what's the big deal, just drive 'em out... or HOLY S**T, THEY'RE ONE WRONG TURN OF THE WHEEL FROM DISASTER!

Getting back to our friendly debate, everyone makes great points to think about. I still must agree with Matt, however. Peter said earlier that the Colorado 4WD Clubbers could've made a statement about how stupid these guys were, then go help them out. Again, that would've been the nice thing to do; and probably most of us here would've rolled up our sleeves and helped these guys out...

If you're a responsible representive of a group, however, the ramifications of your actions must be carefully considered before anything else. Using Peter's suggestion, it could've either turned into great PR for the Colorado 4WD Club, but more likely not. For instance, what if the media chose not to use the quote (this happens!) and only reported the club's involvement in the mess? Again, as a responsible representative of numerous off-roaders in Colorado, I believe the Club absolutely made the correct choice.

Now that's not to say club members couldn't have gone up and helped "incognito", without announcing their membership. That's a different story and I'd bet some did just that...

Matt is not being paranoid by saying that much of the media don't care for people like us; those who enjoy going off the beaten path in a vehicle. While most (I hope) in the 4x4 community are responsible, it's obvious from this event that others are not; and some members of the media would just as soon lump us all together, ending off-roading for good...

 

[Peter Weber]

Chris,
I didn't suggest the Colorade 4wd Assoc. should have stated that the Texans were stupid. I said they should issue a statement that they do not condone this kind of activity. That's different from saying they are stupid. Heck, one of the two brothers is a math teacher. That tell's me he probably has a very methodical, calculating mindset. They got in over their head, tried to work their way out but instead got deeper and deeper. I think we've all done that at one time or another, hopefully not with results as dangerous as it turned out for these two.
Our lifeguards here in California don't stand at the beach watching some guy (or gal) in trouble and let them fend for themselves because they ignored the riptide warnings. The same thing goes for the mountain climbing rescue teams (anywhere, not just Colorado or California). If somebody get's into trouble (especially somebody with the same interests as you), and you have the capabilty to do so, you help. Anything else is secondary. To me that comes first. If we need to worry if helping somebody is politically correct, we've lost already. Not only from a public eye viewpoint, but from a human standpoint also.
Matt, remember our little trouble on the Kane Creek run and what I said about one of your passengers. I meant that. If we can't depend on the people we go out on the trails with, who can we trust.

 

[mattadams]

ok it seems the arguing is taking over the fact of the original idea of the thread, my fault mainly . Everyone makes valid points

 

[leebo]

Help me out here.....I'm a complete idiot, in a stock 4x4, and here's this huge mountain that I'm going to see if I can climb? WoW they're stupid. I hope that everybody here thanks them for putting us all in a bad light now. I'm sure that just about every green peace meeting will be up in arms to ban us all.

O ya......what the heck makes you think that you can drive sideways up a hill at that type of an angle anyways. For what I've heard now is they got the trucks out by just driving them down...just with somebody who knows how to drive behind the wheel. Go fig.

Gosh some people Pi#@ me off sometimes!!!!
LEARN TO DRIVE OFF-HIGHWAY BEFORE YOU DO IT

[Edited by leebo on 08-07-2000 at 08:07 PM]

 

[tdavis]

hey leebo, I have one beef.

Learn to drive, period. I've seen more bad drivers in the SFBay area than I thought possible...

 

[mmpc]

Peter, my mistake. I did not mean to infer it was your suggestion that the Colorado Assn. call the Texans "stupid"; but it did come out that way. My apologies.

Anyway, I enjoyed the lively discussion! It's good to banter these things around once in awhile; makes us all think! Perhaps the entire episode could be summed up by the title of a Blues Traveller song - "The Mountain Wins Again".

Ultimately, it always does...

[Edited by mmpc on 08-07-2000 at 10:10 PM]

 

[FlyAU]

Whatever happened to Blues Traveler? They just sort of fell off the face of the planet after Carolina Blues...

 

[Peter Weber]

I enjoyed it too.
A lively discussion on a highly disputable subject with everybody presenting their opinon in a civilized way without resorting to any name calling.
Try that on some Yahoo boards or Silicon Investor. Some of these people are mean.
It sure tells me something about the kind of people we have on this forum. I'm proud to be part of it.

 

[mattadams]

I spent part of this morning trying to think of examples where the media has incredibly influenced the thinking of average citizens. Here's a few I've come up with.

1) Who thinks Jon Benet's parents are innocent?

2) Who thinks that the United Airlines pilots are right in refusing to work overtime for the safety of themselves as well as thousands of passengers after the media has labeled them as lazy and refusing to work overtime?

3) Who thinks Elian should have stayed in Cuba after being hounded by pictures of a happy boy in America playing with a bunny and saying how he hates Cuba?

4) If the media started saying that four-wheelers were all evil, tearing up the terrain... who wouldn't believe them? Heck, they'd probably make a "special interest" story out of them, ridiculing four-wheeling clubs, the NRA, anyone they could find they disagreed with.

 

[Peter Weber]

Matt, I'm not gonna go there.