Too Close For Comfort

[Eddie Bauer Blue]

Its been in the very high 90s degrees into the 100 degree air temp here in the Carolinas last week. While doing various necessary repairs & maintenance on my daughters 1996 EB Explorer, and using this truck as an everyday driver to and from work, I had not one but two close calls, one very close near catastrophic rear ender averted only by quick lane swerving, with brakes not being able to rapidly stop this vehicle properly. Did the very high temps have anything to compromise braking? It was simple stop and go city driving with speeds at about 45-50mph, not riding the brakes down the side of a mountain. :roll:

Pedal pressure seems fine, very low speed stops below 20mph seem okay, all brake pads front and rear were changed out about 10k miles ago in the fall, to new Wagner Ceramic Premium pads and all lines bled of old fluid. Rear rear rotors were new and I just installed new front- rotors this past week, deglazing the front pads and rebleeding the brake lines again.

But this truck doesn't seem to stop any quicker or shorter distances, and I'm not comfortable handing back my daughters truck with this issue. Getting back into my own 18 year old large sized sedan the stopping effort & distance difference is amazing.-
These premium ceramic- pads may be relatively dustless & clean, but I would much rather have stopping power and dusty wheels.

Anyone have solid advice for me in regards to better, best brakes ?

 

[colintrax]

If you stand on the brake pedal does the abs kick in? If so it's as good as it'll get.
If not, a good bleed should be all it needs. Brake booster works right?

 

[Flash]

I found my Explorer's brakes to be good, better than the Ford sedan of the same year.

 

[koda2000]

I have ceramic brake pads on my 2001 EB 5.0L. I find the braking to be very good. Did you break in the pads correctly after installation? Were the rotors resurfaced? If not it could be you've glazed the pads/rotors.

 

[chefduane]

VERY IMPORTANT to do the break-in procedure. I did brakes/pads/rotors all around in May last year and did the appropriate break-in. Very happy with the Ex braking.

 

[Eddie Bauer Blue]

I may be missing something in the tech knowledge dept here...While I upgraded to fresh new rotors in the front and deglazed the front ceramic pads plus bled the brake fluid a second time in 8 months and still not getting top notch stopping power at 45mph +... what does everyone exactly mean by "properly breaking in" the brake pads, please explain...(fairly new Wagner ceramic pads front and back only 10k miles)

Thanks!

 

[lobo411]

These premium ceramic- pads may be relatively dustless & clean, but I would much rather have stopping power and dusty wheels.

Anyone have solid advice for me in regards to better, best brakes ?

You hit the nail on the head. Ceramic pads are inferior to semi-metallic, both in stopping power and in consistency under varying conditions (cold/hot).

That's why police cruisers come with semi-metallic pads from the factory.

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=1569

 

[1997XLTRollover]

How old are your rubber brakes lines? Rubber lines as they age get very squishy and have to expand before actually applying pressure to the calipers. I replaced all the lines on my truck as soon as I got it and the pedal feels much better now.

 

[chefduane]

^ That's a really good point, Rollover. Never thought of that.

Also EBB, did you wipe the new rotors down with some rotor or brake cleaner? Sometimes they have some factor residue on them.

And just google search 'pad break in' and you'll find lots of info. Basically, you accelerate to about 45-50mph then aggressively hit the brakes to a complete stop.
Hard enough to engage the ABS. Do this 3-4 times. Tends to seat the pads on the rotors and wear off any pre-install factory glaze.

 

[swshawaii]

Debatable if SS braided hoses improve brake performance although most experience an improvement in pedal "feel".

Deerfield Precision SS Brake Lines Inquiry
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398127

 

[XLTrunner]

I, for one, am not a fan of ceramic pads. Can't say I've had an issue with them stopping the vehicle...but, they sure are hard on the rotors. Throw on some Wagner ThermoQuiets and see if you notice a difference. Been using these for my vehicles last few yrs and they work great, hold up well and dust isn't a problem.

 

[Eddie Bauer Blue]

How old are your rubber brakes lines? Rubber lines as they age get very squishy and have to expand before actually applying pressure to the calipers. I replaced all the lines on my truck as soon as I got it and the pedal feels much better now.

I appreciate this point about the rubber hose lines losing pressure after aging - I will definitely change them out if it means stopping a few yards quicker, thanks Rollover !

 

[Eddie Bauer Blue]

You hit the nail on the head. Ceramic pads are inferior to semi-metallic, both in stopping power and in consistency under varying conditions (cold/hot).

That's why police cruisers come with semi-metallic pads from the factory.

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=1569

Thanks Lobo411 for pointing this out - I may just forego the dust free ceramic for the extra super duty taxi - police equivalent pads if it means a few feet/yards faster stopping

 

[Eddie Bauer Blue]

^ That's a really good point, Rollover. Never thought of that.

Also EBB, did you wipe the new rotors down with some rotor or brake cleaner? Sometimes they have some factor residue on them.

And just google search 'pad break in' and you'll find lots of info. Basically, you accelerate to about 45-50mph then aggressively hit the brakes to a complete stop.
Hard enough to engage the ABS. Do this 3-4 times. Tends to seat the pads on the rotors and wear off any pre-install factory glaze.

I did spray brake cleaner 2x over the new rotors and sanded off the glaze off the 10k mileage ceramic brake pads before reassembly..

Thanks for the pad break in explanation reminder, will do from here on out.

 

[intelisevil]

Debatable if SS braided hoses improve brake performance although most experience an improvement in pedal "feel".

Deerfield Precision SS Brake Lines Inquiry
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398127

I recently replaced the brakes on my '99 Mounty starting with these brake lines. New calipers, rotors and pads on all four corners. It's now the best braking vehicle I've ever driven or ridden in. Very nice pedal feel, response and consistent control.

Dan

 

[1997XLTRollover]

Stainless lines are nice but not as durable as factory rubber lines from what I hear. The lines age faster but do help give a nice solid pedal feel. That being said, my Mustang got the SS lines, my Explorer has factory rubber. The SS lines normally cost twice as much too so it's all really application dependent. For something driven through salt and harsh weather I'd probably use rubber.

 

[Bobmbx]

I didn't see an answer to the question of whether or not the ABS kicked in.

If the pads/rotors are slippery enough to never allow the wheels to lock up, you must be experiencing poor brake performance throughout the normal use range. Have you noticed any discrepancy in foot-force required to stop at a stop sign between now and say, a year or two ago? I realize it would be gradual degradation or you may have just gotten used to it. Do you notice better normal breaking in any other car you drive?

If your braking is normal otherwise, but unable to activate the ABS under hard braking, you need to solve a pressure problem.

That could be a booster, spongy lines, air in the system.

The first test I would do is get it up to ~40mph on a smooth, dry surface, and stand on the brake pedal until the car stops. And I mean stand on it. The purpose is to try to lock a wheel and activate the ABS. If you run out of pedal before the ABS kicks in, its not your pads or rotors.

 

[96eb96]

The Motorcraft OEM brake pad is excellent and you really can't go wrong. Then again something from a name like Wagner should stop with authority.

Not saying it is your problem, but Bad ABS units have been known to bleed off brake pressure. In some cases no brakes at all! For tough to solve problems techs actually have high pressure brake pressure gauges.

You may also have air trapped in your ABS unit, and that requires a scan tool to bleed. Maybe activate your abs a few times and rebleed the system.

 

[Eddie Bauer Blue]

I didn't see an answer to the question of whether or not the ABS kicked in.

If the pads/rotors are slippery enough to never allow the wheels to lock up, you must be experiencing poor brake performance throughout the normal use range. Have you noticed any discrepancy in foot-force required to stop at a stop sign between now and say, a year or two ago? I realize it would be gradual degradation or you may have just gotten used to it. Do you notice better normal breaking in any other car you drive?

If your braking is normal otherwise, but unable to activate the ABS under hard braking, you need to solve a pressure problem.

That could be a booster, spongy lines, air in the system.

The first test I would do is get it up to ~40mph on a smooth, dry surface, and stand on the brake pedal until the car stops. And I mean stand on it. The purpose is to try to lock a wheel and activate the ABS. If you run out of pedal before the ABS kicks in, its not your pads or rotors.

I've returned ol' Blue to my daughter who uses it as her daily driver and did not see any of these post answers till after...

However I intend to "throw out the anchor" as hard as possible to test the ABS system as you outlined and gave the logic behind why, as soon as I can get a chance, cause I'm very curious now. And in turn better isolate whether its spongy lines, booster, or master cylinder pressure problems. Lines have been bled out of air twice in 7 months.

Thanks, Bobmbx

 

[Eddie Bauer Blue]

The Motorcraft OEM brake pad is excellent and you really can't go wrong. Then again something from a name like Wagner should stop with authority.

Not saying it is your problem, but Bad ABS units have been known to bleed off brake pressure. In some cases no brakes at all! For tough to solve problems techs actually have high pressure brake pressure gauges.

You may also have air trapped in your ABS unit, and that requires a scan tool to bleed. Maybe activate your abs a few times and rebleed the system.

I did in fact have air in the ABS problem with an early Dodge Intrepid we used to own but didnt understand why after changing out brakes and hand bleeding, our ABS light remained on and braking was never quite what it should have been

Thanks for this tip as well 96eb96