Will this combo require a tune?

[Carguy3J]

I have a '93 Ranger 4.0L, 5spd, 4x4.

I just picked up a never-run rebuilt motor. It has a 410 comp cam, Accel 24Lb/hr injectors, and some mild gasket matching port work on the intake manifold. I was told the heads got a 3 angle valve job, along with some mild port work/bowl blending. Otherwise, the motor is all stock replacement parts.

I know the 410 cam is supposed to be a considered a stock replacement cam, and should run fine with a stock ecm. What about those 24LB. injectors though ( stock is 19Lb, right? )?
I asked the seller, and he said that comp told him that the injectors would just make up for the extra airflow of the cam, and would still run right on the stock ecm. Opinions on this?

I know that a tune is always helpful, but is it required, with these parts? A tune just isn't in the budget right now. I guess I could swap in my stock 19Lb injectors, but I'd rather not.

Also, the seller built the motor with stock replacement valve springs, rockers, and pushrods. Will these be ok, with the comp 410?

 

[jd4242]

You would need a tune for the 24s and they are not needed.19s are PLENTY...he is full of it if he said comp cams told him 24s would work or make up for the added air..i run 19s on my built 422 high compression motor and they are plenty..its ported upper, lower and larger tb..

the 410 requires long pushrods period. .in order to gain the lift on the cam the base circle is .050 smaller..also if the springs are not new they will not perform like they should, comp cams calls for duals but new stocks work fine but are at the limit.

 

[Carguy3J]

You would need a tune for the 24s and they are not needed.19s are PLENTY...he is full of it if he said comp cams told him 24s would work or make up for the added air..i run 19s on my built 422 high compression motor and they are plenty..its ported upper, lower and larger tb..

the 410 requires long pushrods period. .in order to gain the lift on the cam the base circle is .050 smaller..also if the springs are not new they will not perform like they should, comp cams calls for duals but new stocks work fine but are at the limit.

Well, it looks like I'll have a set of pretty much new Accel 24LB injectors for sale then. I guess its not too bad. I think they will bring decent money on ebay.

The springs look to be new, and that's what he said they were. By, "at the limit" would this be a ticking time bomb, or just means its as far as I can go without different springs? I don't want to have to "take it easy" or anything. Will I still be ok, pushing the motor hard, WOT/ high rpm on a regular basis, as I do now?

So, with the stock 19LB injectors will this run well/safe on the factory ecm?

Do you know a.) what length pushrod I would need (I will pull one out and measure it tomorrow, if its not snowing)? and b.) where is a good place to get them?

If I have to go replacing all kinds of parts, then this goes from a good deal (I paid $550) to a big waste of money, in a hurry....

 

[jd4242]

Springs will be fine ""if"" they are new.they will fall off but many many miles down and you probably wont notice it by then, its just performance and may tap by then causing wear..no need to take it easy or anything, many have run that setup. Just if it was a high performance, high hp motor it would not be ideal. .
19 will work just fine, they will handle more hp than your ever produce. 24 ""may"" work without a tune but idle and cruise will definitely suffer for sure without a tune.only way to tune is the sct 5 bank elimnator chip plus dyno, ive got Probably a grand in my tune/chip.

I would suggest measuring for pushrods but 5.525-5.550 seems to be what works..smith brothers sells pushrods or a measuring tool..

For that price seems to be good deal no major changes just fine tuning

 

[Carguy3J]

Springs will be fine ""if"" they are new.they will fall off but many many miles down and you probably wont notice it by then, its just performance and may tap by then causing wear..no need to take it easy or anything, many have run that setup. Just if it was a high performance, high hp motor it would not be ideal. .
19 will work just fine, they will handle more hp than your ever produce. 24 ""may"" work without a tune but idle and cruise will definitely suffer for sure without a tune.only way to tune is the sct 5 bank elimnator chip plus dyno, ive got Probably a grand in my tune/chip.

I would suggest measuring for pushrods but 5.525-5.550 seems to be what works..smith brothers sells pushrods or a measuring tool..

For that price seems to be good deal no major changes just fine tuning

Ok, thanks. I'll have to look into the pushrods. How do I measure for the correct length? I'm sort of familiar with the process for stud mounted rockers, like in a small block chevy, where you look at the contact pattern between the rocker and the valve tip. Would the same apply here, or is it a different process, since these are shaft mounted?

What do you think I can expect to get for the Accel 24LB injectors? They sell, new, on Summit, for $240 (150624). They've been installed in the motor, but never used. They still look like new, and I have part of the package they came in. Is there a demand for these, even though they are an older style?

 

[jd4242]

Its very similar for any hydraulic lifter motor...ill double check my post in the morning as I just got off my second job and shift drinks have been had but I believe the ohv lifters had .070 of plunger play.so it would varies if the lifter is full or empty. make the cam be at or cylinder at lowest point (valve closed at base circle) rockers installed, then install pushrod measuring tool where there is no play or lift being applied to the rocker or the plunger.then add half the plunger play (.035) to what you measure the tool at, that should give you the length.should be around 5.525-5.550.again ill have to double check my numbers as this is just off top of my head.you do have some play as they are hydraulic, I like to go on the higher side as they will wear but other swear to go on lower side and let the lifters do their job but the ohv has poor oiling so they tend to wear faster..I believe stock was 5.475, I have a thread with pictures somewhere on here.lol

I dont honestly know what the 24s would go for but know many old fox bodys use them.you possible could use them but the ohv just doesnt produce enough hp to adjust them stock to have good idle or cruise without tune and tuneing is just outa the question for so minor mods..sure someone would buy them and any money you do get would just be profit.

 

[jd4242]

Hope that makes some sense. .lol like I said ill double check all that in the morning and sure someone will chime in and add something my tired ass forgot; )

 

[Carguy3J]

Ok. I just talked to "Smith Bros." They agreed that your estimate is in the ballpark, but that I should measure to be sure. They quoted me $10/each for new pushrods.

I asked another question, that lead to an interesting thought. These pushrods/rocker tips wear prematurely, due to poor oiling.I also noticed that the pushrods are "closed" with no oiling holes, like one would find on a small block chevy. The guy at Smith Bros said they could do an oiling hole,with a 0.040 restrictor, which they estimated would flow about 30% of the oil that normal unrestricted pushrods would flow (assuming they had the "standard" oiling hole.

He advised that I consult with someone more knowledgeable in the 4.0L though, due to concerns about oil flooding the valvetrain.

So, could this work, or would it be too much of a good thing?

 

[jd4242]

Ok. I just talked to "Smith Bros." They agreed that your estimate is in the ballpark, but that I should measure to be sure. They quoted me $10/each for new pushrods.

I asked another question, that lead to an interesting thought. These pushrods/rocker tips wear prematurely, due to poor oiling.I also noticed that the pushrods are "closed" with no oiling holes, like one would find on a small block chevy. The guy at Smith Bros said they could do an oiling hole,with a 0.040 restrictor, which they estimated would flow about 30% of the oil that normal unrestricted pushrods would flow (assuming they had the "standard" oiling hole.

He advised that I consult with someone more knowledgeable in the 4.0L though, due to concerns about oil flooding the valvetrain.

So, could this work, or would it be too much of a good thing?

I discussed this with them also a couple years ago.when I was researching it I didnt get any input or knowledge about it.I was concerned about the lifters and if they would preform like normal. I didnt know if they would build pressure to push oil up the rods and noone else seemed to know also.then I brought up the point the rockers have oil holes in the cup and will build pressure that way but will it cause a lake or loss of pressure in the shaft and rockers??.in my opinion I dont think it could or would hurt anything but I just didnt know.I went with the m328 high volume oil pump to help.maybe with the hv pump and oil holes in the rods would be best combo..idk tho

Their prices have come down also, think I was paying $13-14 a rod.I need a set for my forged motor im building so I would like to bring this back up to be investigated. Maybe you can find something or draw up some interestbut I think I may end up with a set of roller rockers so dont know what rods would be best for that, yet.

 

[jd4242]

Another thing if I remember is that sbc lifters have a oil hole in them and ours dont.so oil wouldnt go up the rods..ours gets oil through the shaft (comes up middle pedestal) then through the rocker.starting to remember some now!!!thats why I was worried about lack or loss pressure in the shaft/rockers.they would help oil the lifters though but its more that the rocker tip wears where it touches the valve tip.once that happens it begins to slap/tap.stock rods are just weak and soft so wear shows on them but honestly its the tip where oiling is lacked.you get smith bro rods and they wont show any wear, where the valve tip end will, or atleast the motors ive pulled back apart.

 

[Carguy3J]

What about very slightly opening up the oiling hole in the rocker cup? That should get more oil to the pushrod.

The other idea I had was to use an anti-friction coating:
http://www.techlinecoatingswebstore.com/Internal_Coatings-Powerkote_trade_Dry_Film_Lube_7oz.html

It would be fairly inexpensive (about $40 for the coating, plus a dedicated toaster oven) to coat the pushrods and the rocker cups. It might even be beneficial to coat the shaft and the inside of the rocker pivot, and certainly the rocker tip, on the valve side as well. It would be great to do the lifter body and the valve tips too, but I'm not pulling the motor apart. The only possible issue with this is the cure temps needed. The part has to be baked at 350deg min. for at least an hour. Will this hurt either the pushrods or the rockers? Would that be hot enough to distort anything?

I love the idea of the Morana roller rockers, but a.) I would NEVER pay $800 for them. The price alone will doom them to failure. Very few people running a 4.0L-OHV are willing to spend that kind of money. If they made them closer to $400, it would be something many more people would consider, and they would make it up on volume.
Further, they only seem to come in a 1.8 ratio. Combined with the comp 410 cam, there is no way I could run that without springs/head work, and a tune. They really ought to do a stock ratio version, and/or maybe 1.6 ratio, for those who just want the benefits of a roller, or maybe just a little more lift. (Yes, I know higher rocker ratios also get the valve off/on the seat faster, for more duration).

 

[Carguy3J]

I bought the length checker from Smith Bros.
This motor has been sitting for 2+ years. Would it be safe to assume the lifters are fully collapsed at this point?

 

[Carguy3J]

Its very similar for any hydraulic lifter motor...ill double check my post in the morning as I just got off my second job and shift drinks have been had but I believe the ohv lifters had .070 of plunger play.so it would varies if the lifter is full or empty. make the cam be at or cylinder at lowest point (valve closed at base circle) rockers installed, then install pushrod measuring tool where there is no play or lift being applied to the rocker or the plunger.then add half the plunger play (.035) to what you measure the tool at, that should give you the length.should be around 5.525-5.550.again ill have to double check my numbers as this is just off top of my head.you do have some play as they are hydraulic, I like to go on the higher side as they will wear but other swear to go on lower side and let the lifters do their job but the ohv has poor oiling so they tend to wear faster..I believe stock was 5.475, I have a thread with pictures somewhere on here.lol

I dont honestly know what the 24s would go for but know many old fox bodys use them.you possible could use them but the ohv just doesnt produce enough hp to adjust them stock to have good idle or cruise without tune and tuneing is just outa the question for so minor mods..sure someone would buy them and any money you do get would just be profit.

I just spoke to the tech line at Sealed Power. According to them the lifter plungers have a range of travel of 0.062 Now, I don't know if stock, or other aftermarket lifters would be the same or not, but I would think they would be the same?

 

[jd4242]

I just spoke to the tech line at Sealed Power. According to them the lifter plungers have a range of travel of 0.062 Now, I don't know if stock, or other aftermarket lifters would be the same or not, but I would think they would be the same?

Should be VERY close.that small of a difference wont make any difference. It all depends on how you feel it should be set up.some say a 1/3 of the stroke distance, so to let them do there job.personally I like to go 50-60% so when they wear they have some room.

So my memory measurement probably was what I measured, they aren't the easiest to measure.personally I would still stick to around .035ish

Just remember though, the valve train is going to be louder with a cam.just is even with the right pushrods

 

[Carguy3J]

Should be VERY close.that small of a difference wont make any difference. It all depends on how you feel it should be set up.some say a 1/3 of the stroke distance, so to let them do there job.personally I like to go 50-60% so when they wear they have some room.

So my memory measurement probably was what I measured, they aren't the easiest to measure.personally I would still stick to around .035ish

Just remember though, the valve train is going to be louder with a cam.just is even with the right pushrods

So, what if you go a little "tighter", with a longer pushrod? Will the lifter "pump-up" be strong enough to hang a valve open, against the spring pressure? I'm just thinking, less hydraulic movement, more precision in the valvetrain. Can the lifters be damaged if they don't have room to "grow"?

 

[jd4242]

So, what if you go a little "tighter", with a longer pushrod? Will the lifter "pump-up" be strong enough to hang a valve open, against the spring pressure? I'm just thinking, less hydraulic movement, more precision in the valvetrain. Can the lifters be damaged if they don't have room to "grow"?

I dont belive so, especially not with dual springs.from what I know you dont achieve full lift with a hydraulic lifter.they act more of a cushion. Reason solid lifter make more lift and power typically. But if you go on the shorter side you can get slop/slap outa them especially after they wear.i belive you can technically go to the point where the valve is almost open and they would provide more lift and act more like a solid lifter but if you dont leave ""some"" room for the plunger to move its more likely to get stuck in that position and become a dead lifter after wear.just like in a solid lifter you would need a way to adjust the rocker.thats why I tend to go 50-60%, to me it makes it a firmer lifter but still has room to move/adjust.just my theory tho, no proof or facts behind that.lol

 

[jd4242]

Woooo I just found my thread and I measured the play out to be .120 and went with .060 and later went to .070 ,so maybe you or I need to remeasure them..maybe sealed power meant .062 was what you should add to the pushrods...I have a set at home I can measure again..now you have a pushrod measuring tool you can measure what you have also.stick it in where it just starts to push on the plunger, measure.then stick it in and adjust it till the valve starts to open, measure.that should give you plunger play..

 

[Carguy3J]

Woooo I just found my thread and I measured the play out to be .120 and went with .060 and later went to .070 ,so maybe you or I need to remeasure them..maybe sealed power meant .062 was what you should add to the pushrods...I have a set at home I can measure again..now you have a pushrod measuring tool you can measure what you have also.stick it in where it just starts to push on the plunger, measure.then stick it in and adjust it till the valve starts to open, measure.that should give you plunger play..

I think I understand the instructions, BUT, this motor has no oil in it. Its a rebuild that never ran. So, shouldn't I assume the lifters are fully collapsed, and are going to stay that way until it sees oil pressure?

 

[jd4242]

I think I understand the instructions, BUT, this motor has no oil in it. Its a rebuild that never ran. So, shouldn't I assume the lifters are fully collapsed, and are going to stay that way until it sees oil pressure?

They have springs in them.but yes they should have no oil in them, thats a good thing.you dont want any oil in them when measuring them like that, it can prvent the plunger from going all the way down.im pretty sure on the .120 measurement, I measured mine with them outa the vehicle. If you think about it .030ish of play (going off .062max) isnt any play really at all.