Engine swap will not start

[TestPoint]

I have several threads running on this engine swap and all its problems. Maybe this will be the last.

I am putting a very low mileage '00 Explorer 302 into an old Volvo. Everything is hooked up, got spark and after lots of problems with PATS appears I have PCM controlled grounds to the injectors. Compression is great. Fuel pressure is adjusted to about 70psi on a permanently installed gauge two feet from the fuel rail. The entire engine harness and engine mechanicals are as delivered lo those many years ago by Ford.

Out of ideas. What do I do next?

In case you want to catch up on 6 months of trials check here: http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364540

 

[2000StreetRod]

back to basics

Greetings Tom,
I sympathize with your lengthly struggle to solve the numerous problems associated with your engine swap but I admire your persistence. You are quite an adept mechanic so I'm confident you will eventually succeed.

I suggest evaluating some of the basic requirements for an operational fuel injected engine:

1. Good fuel injected at the correct time for the proper air/fuel ratio
2. Adequate spark at the appropriate time
3. Good compression
4. Unrestricted intake and exhaust flow

Is it possible that after all this time the fuel is no longer fresh enough to fire? Have you tried spraying starting fluid into the intake manifold after the throttle plate to see if the engine will run for a second or two?

Is the engine coolant temperature sensor functional so the mixture is rich at cold start?

Have you checked the ignition timing?

Have you checked a spark plug to see if its wet/dry after cranking the starter?

70 psi is a little high for fuel pressure. Maybe the mixture is too rich.

 

[TestPoint]

Thanks for sticking with me!

1. Good fuel injected at the correct time for the proper air/fuel ratio

The engine coughs and sputters on starter fluid. No signs of life on gas and injection. I have been trying to figure out how to test the fuel injectors short of pulling the entire top of the engine off. I did check the fuel rail hose for wasp before putting everything together. Anytime working on an old engine that is always a problem

Checking injector operation on my other restoration project

Plugs are a little wet after cranking . . . at least enough to make me think that I really have at least some injection.

Nothing has been done to affect timing; either fuel or spark.

2. Adequate spark at the appropriate time

It is getting spark. Coughs and sputters on starter fluid. Haven't checked timing but nothing has moved from when the car was upside down.

3. Good compression

Compression is great! Somewhere in this tome I published the figures but they were equal or better than new engine specs. Engine only has 11k miles on it.

4. Unrestricted intake and exhaust flow

When coughing and sputtering it blew all the 30 year old diesel soot and crud out the back and 20 feet across the drive. Other than the filter the intake is unrestricted as I had to build it to fit the Volvo/Ford conversion.

Is it possible that after all this time the fuel is no longer fresh enough to fire?

Put 5 gal of gas into a drained tank 10 months ago. Added 5 gal of fresh gas last week.

Have you tried spraying starting fluid into the intake manifold after the throttle plate to see if the engine will run for a second or two?

I sprayed it onto the filter. Think that screwed up the MAFS?

Is the engine coolant temperature sensor functional so the mixture is rich at cold start?

Duh . . . ?

70 psi is a little high for fuel pressure. Maybe the mixture is too rich.

The 70psi line pressure is about right for the '99 - '01 65psi injector system.

 

[2000StreetRod]

synchronizer?

If the engine starts to run on starter fluid then the ignition timing is probably OK.

The 5.0L has two coil packs. Have you confirmed that there is spark for both coil packs?

Does the 2000 V8 have a spout connector like the older V8s? If so, try removing the shorting bar from the spout connector to cause the ignition to revert to the base timing mode.

While I have no first hand experience with the 5.0L I've read that the engine will be hard to start and run poorly if the synchronizer isn't set right and the injectors fire late or early. Has the synchronizer been removed and reinstalled since the engine last ran?

Was the donor vehicle a roll-over? Did you witness the engine run before pulling it?

Spraying starting fluid into the intake upstream of the MAF sensor is not a good idea. I suggest cleaning the MAF sensor.

How about the IAC valve? My SOHC V6 will start for an instant but not run with the IAC valve electrical connector disconnected.

Is the throttle plate closed? Is the TPS voltage correct for closed throttle?

Do you have EGR? If so, is the EGR valve closed?

 

[TestPoint]

Thanks for the questions! I am too burned out on this project to think of such details myself.

Here are the answers to the quiz:

The 5.0L has two coil packs. Have you confirmed that there is spark for both coil packs?

Yes, spark from both coils.

Does the 2000 V8 have a spout connector like the older V8s? If so, try removing the shorting bar from the spout connector to cause the ignition to revert to the base timing mode.

I am not familiar with a ‘spout connector’ nor did my research clearly define what one was. I am left with the impression that is something related to OBD-I systems and not OBD-II.

Has the (cam position sensor) synchronizer been removed and reinstalled since the engine last ran?

No.

Was the donor vehicle a roll-over? Did you witness the engine run before pulling it?

Don’t know. JY records said that it was one of the Explorer/Firestone totals. No, nothing on the engine has been changed.

I suggest cleaning the MAF sensor.

Did that. It did look a little ‘fuzzy’ but the MAFS and filter to TB duct probably came off another vehicle with much higher mileage than the engine.

How about the IAC valve?

Blew it out, hit it with some carb cleaner and moved the valve. The valve is partially open and moves freely. I don't know if that is correct or not.

Is the throttle plate closed? Is the TPS voltage correct for closed throttle?

Throttle plate is fully closed. The TPS voltage is 0.88 to 4.79v on one side, 0.33 to 3.65v on the other side. The first would seem to be close, not sure about the other. Discovered that it is not a 'rheostat' so ohm measurements are not valid.

. . . is the EGR valve closed?

I ran out of gas and came in from a cold garage for a couple olives before disassembling the EGR valve. The engine came with one and I added an exhaust header port to connect to. Maybe tomorrow.

In my research I found your discussion of the Cam Position Sensor powered vs Hall Effect device. Would you mind explaining that on one of my other threads? http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364540

I could link to it but you might have some insight in the specific area of early vs late CPS operation.

 

[Turdle]

I want to inject a suggestion that will waste only time.

I ran into a similar situation, During my attempts to get the engine to fire, Everything flooded and the plugs got fouled.
Try either cleaning the spark plugs, or replacing them, then, rest the fuel injector duty cycle by holding the throttle to the floor ( assuming a TPS is connected) , and crank the engine over while holding it at WOT. Then of course let it clean out and idle if it does fire off.

Did you install the cam sensor? Is the sensor matched to the harness and PCM year?

 

[TestPoint]

I tried the 'pedal to the floor', no cigar.

Plugs are new and not fouled.

The cam sensor, harness and PCM are matched.

Sooner or later we will trip upon the final solution!


Keep hitting me!

 

[2000StreetRod]

Tps

The TPS is just a potentiometer with a reference voltage (5.0v) to one end, a common return connected to the other end, and throttle position signal to the PCM connected to the wiper. It is a simple, variable voltage divider. When the ignition is turned on with the throttle plate closed the PCM sets that voltage as the idle (closed throttle plate) voltage. 0.88 volts between the wiper and the return is about right and within PCM tolerance. It might be slightly different if you measured between wiper and chassis ground. 4.79v is just below the maximum limit for WOT but OK.

As Turdle posted, when the PCM detects WOT during starter motor cranking it disables the fuel injectors to allow a "flooded" engine to start.

The IAC valve should be as you found (not at either mechanical extreme) to allow the PCM to adjust the idle speed higher or lower.

As I recall you are using the 2000 engine wiring harness and 2000 PCM that came from the donor. All of your wiring changes to accomodate the Volvo body are external to the main engine wiring harness connector (C115). There is a common signal return (circuit 359) for the TPS, ECT sensor, CMP sensor, IAT sensor, DPFE sensor and fuel tank pressure sensor. Make sure the TPS, CMP, ECT and IAT sensors return are all connected to PCM pin 91. Then check the signals for those same sensors: TPS wiper > PCM pin 89; CMP > PCM pin 85; ECT > PCM pin 38; IAT > PCM pin 39. If those are all good then check the TPS and DPFE reference voltage: TPS & DPFE > PCM pin 90. I assume that you have checked the MAF sensor to PCM connections.

Since the CMP sensor (synchronizer) is stock, there should not be a compatibility issue (Hall effect vs reluctor) between it and the stock PCM.

I can't remember if the SCT Power Flash allows reading parameter identifiers (PIDs) with the ignition on but the engine not running. If so, then you can use it to read the sensor signals to see if they are reasonable. My Power Flash has limited stand alone capability but I've only used it in that mode to monitor the commanded vs actual engine speed.

I just hooked up my Power Flash to my computer and it has a 5.0l at.dlf that has some very useful PIDs to monitor.

 

[TestPoint]

What if I just tow the monster over to Greenville?








Just kidding. I am not going to let this thing beat me!

I will try to evaluate all the PCM pin 91 questions tomorrow. The documentation of the SCT device is woefully short of enough information to effectively use the device. Nowhere is a PID mentioned.

Any info on using it to read sensors would be appreciated.

 

[2000StreetRod]

X3 Power Flash Monitor Mode

I tried using the preloaded 5.0l at.dlf file on my X3 Power Flash and all of the PIDs I selected were invalid when I tried to monitor them on my Sport. It could be because my engine is a 4.0l V6 or it could be because I never started the engine. I was able to monitor some useful PIDs using the preloaded gasoline.dlf file without starting the engine.

Below are steps to monitor some of the sensor PIDs:

1. Reduce electrical load on battery by switching off heater blower, radio, etc.
2. Connect X3 Power Flash to OBDII port.
3. Depress > for Check Engine.
4. Depress > for Data Logging.
5. Depress SELECT for Data Logging.
6. Depress < for Setup
7. Depress SELECT for Setup.
8. Depress SELECT for Config Analog Inputs No
9. Searching for files will be displayed briefly.
10. preloaded monitor files will be displayed
11. Depress V to scroll to gasonline.dlf
12. Depress SELECT to select gasoline.dlf
13. Depress V until coolant_temp is highlighted
14. Depress SELECT to select coolant_temp
15. Depress V until intake_air_temp is highlighted
16. Depress SELECT to select intake_air_temp
17. Depress V until load is highlighted
18. Depress SELECT to select load
19. Depress V until thrt_pos_abslolute is highlighted
20. Depress SELECT to select thrt_pos_absolute
21. Depress CANCEL for done with selecting PIDs
22. DATALOG Start Monitor will be displayed
23. Depress SELECT to start monitor
24. Start Engine will be displayed
25. Turn on ignition
26. Depress SELECT to continue
27. Initialize will be displayed
28. Selected PIDs will be displayed and continuously updated

Note:
coolant_temp will change to ect (engine coolant temp)
intake_air_temp will change to iat (ambient air temp)
load will remain load (mine was 0.28)
thrt_pos_absolute will change to tp_v (mine was 205.00 at closed throttle)

29. Turn off ignition
30. Disconnect Power Flash from OBDII port

Other notes:

Only four PIDs can be simultaneously displayed
If you select more than four you scroll up and down to see the rest
maf_counts changes to maf_v (mine was 6.00)
If you have a USB port to device cable (like for a printer) you can play with the Power Flash plugged into a USB port on your computer. You can also use the cable plugged into a laptop to datalog any of hundreds of PIDs. See Custom tune by Henson
Many PIDs will be invalid unless the engine is running.

 

[TestPoint]

That's neat!

My readings were:

ECT 48
IAT 52 Garage was rather cold
LOAD 0.0 (engine not started)
TP_V 180

At least we know those sensors are communicating with the PCM. I assume that the device will read any of the OBD II code standard PID's (?). What about any manufacturer codes such as Body, Suspension, Security, Air Bag, etc. I found data logging and tuning software available for some of the 'ricer' vehicles dirt cheap but cars I am interested in range from $250 (AutoEnginuity) to $2500 for the manufacturer's version.

Read through your link to your tune. Now I have to learn all that.

 

[2000StreetRod]

data logging

I used my Power Flash and laptop to data log my transmission 3>4 shift flare. Analysis of the recorded data indicated that at 8 minutes and a transmission temperature of 110 degrees there was no detectable flare and the upshift time was 0.3 seconds. After 22 minutes and a transmission temperature of 152 degrees the upshift flare was 366 rpm and the shift time increased to 3.6 seconds. I detected no deterioration in the 1>2 or 2>3 shifts.

Your IAT, ECT and TPS sensor data looks OK which means your electrical wiring to them should be correct. I question the load which is primarily dependent on MAF sensor data. My load (0.28) was also with the engine off. I suggest that you read the maf_counts to see if it is zero also. Maybe disconnect the MAF sensor and see if the reading changes.

Do you have any DTCs?

 

[TestPoint]

No DTC's. It's cold and dark, I'll verify the 'MAF_Counts' tomorrow. I'll also look through all the other choices to confirm the OEM wiring harness connections.

I borrowed an AutoEnginuity reader/data logger to find a transmission control module problem on the udder car. Pretty neat; was able to see the fact that the TCM was not releasing the torque converter lock-up on forced downshifts.

. . . impressed me!

I really appreciate you pointing the way. Most of my engine building/repair was in the carb/points days. I missed most of the past 30 years trying to earn a living away from cars. Now retired, I find myself over my head in all I missed.

 

[TestPoint]

I turned the entire data log list on to see if something necessary turned up missing.

Here are the results:

Vpwr (Battery Voltage) 12.38 (v)
ect ( Engine Coolant Temp) 42
Fpdc (Fuel Pressure?) 0.0
iacdc (Idle air control ?) 0.0
Frp (Fuel Rail Pressure) invalid (’00 had pressure sensor in tank)
iat (Intake Air Temp) 50
Load (Calculated engine load) 0.00
Longft1 (Long term fuel trim) 1.0
Longft2 1.0
mafv (MAFS voltage) 5.0
mafv (?) invalid
mafots (?) 180
rpm (engine not running) 0.0
shrtft1 (Short term fuel trim) 0.70
shrtft2 0.70
spark (?) 0.0
tov (?) 180
vss (vehicle speed sensor) 0.0
tpv (?) 180

Anyone know what is missing or different from expectations? And more specifically, what the second 'mafv', 'mafots', 'spark', 'tov' and 'tpv are and what the datum should be.

Engine still spins up on starter fluid so it appears that the problem is still fuel injection. Such things as spark, CPS and timing would logically seem to be satisfied by that. I can see a ground pulsing from the PCM on the two injector connectors I can push a pin into. Guess I could verify the other by testing the wire codes at the PCM but that just seems a waste of time. I have pressure at the rail Schrader valve and that is just under 70psi at the regulator gauge.

Short of pulling the top off the engine to remove the fuel rail and test the injectors any thoughts on what to do next?

 

[2000StreetRod]

which file?

Which preloaded datalog file did you select?

spark is probably ignition timing (advance or retard)
tpv is throttle position (I think %*10 of max voltage)

I think iacdc is the PCM commanded rpm to be maintained by the iac valve

I don't know about the others. None of yours that have values look abnormal to me.

I'll reflect more about no injector pulse before responding. Do you have a noid light? They're fairly inexpensive but you have to get the correct type.

 

[TestPoint]

The gasoline.dif

No Noid light but HF has a set that is almost free compared to the time and money I have spent on this project. http://www.harborfreight.com/11-piece-noid-light-and-iac-tester-set-97959.html

I have always planned on removing the intake manifold, sandblasting and clear coating it. Maybe now is a good time but what do I do then, ship the injectors off for testing and cleaning? Know anyone that does that?

I did install all new injectors in the other project car because the original ones has rusted shut.

Another of my occasional flashes of adequacy; I have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and the pressure pump puts out over 95psi. What do you think about jacking up the pressure to 75psi or so?

 

[2000StreetRod]

possible injector test

Since the engine starts on starting fluid then the problem must be fuel related. In reviewing my book of wiring diagrams it appears that the fuel injector wiring is part of the wiring harness that includes the PCM connector. I assume that you are using that wiring harness as it came on the donor. Therefore, if you have power to the PCM and the wiring harness is functional then there should also be power to the fuel injectors. Obviously the PCM has power since it is functioning and even reporting the voltage applied to it (VPWR). However, there are several splices in the wiring harness for the injectors. One possible test to determine if there is power to the injectors that might be relatively easy is to disconnect the PCM connector from the PCM, turn on the ignition and check for battery voltage at the PCM pins associated with each fuel injector [pins 75 (TN), 101 (WH), 74 (BN/YE), 100 (BN/LB), 73 (TN/BK), 99 (LG/OG), 72 (TN/RD), 98 (LB)]. If they pass the test then either the fuel lines to the injectors are blocked or the injectors are not being energized. As you posted earlier the injectors are energized by the PCM pulling the signal low. I hate to mention this, but if the PCM is not pulling the injector supply voltage low then you probably still have a PATS problem. However, I remember at least one other SOHC V6 forum member mentioning that when he swapped engines he did something accidently to block the fuel supply to the fuel rail.

I do not encourage you to increase the fuel pressure. There is already plenty of pressure. I suggest that you focus on determining if the injectors are being energized. I can hear my injectors pulsing when the engine is idling. I don't know if I could hear them with the starter cranking.

 

[TestPoint]

I have verified that I have continuous B+ in RUN on the red leads of the two injector connectors that are accessible. On those two I see the PCM ground pulling the voltage down to 4 - 6 volts as the injectors are pulsed. That is probably more a function of my precision HF VOM than a harness issue. I think we have the same model based on one of your pictures.

Does the above electrical measurements seem correct to you? They do to me.

I guess I can get the wife's pin cushion out and test all the leads tomorrow as the weather is not fit for anything else.

Looking around the net I find mail-off rebuild of injectors from $18 to $30. Rock Auto has a manufacturer close out of new Standard Auto Products (China) injectors with a 3 year, 36k mile warranty for $26 each. I am trying to envision how to test the injectors on top of the engine. Earlier I posted a picture of my baby bottle test setup for the Bosch CIS injectors. Perhaps I need to buy 2 additional bottles.

While I did check the fuel rail fuel line for wasps that is a never ending nagging thought.

 

[wood1]

Rustyjohnson does injectors Tom. Could you elaborate on the wasps comment?

 

[Turdle]

The maf voltage is pegged. Usually 5v is the maximum any maf can output as a signal. I think there is a shorted circuit or crossed connection there.