Solved 02 Explorer, no start

[JohnJ]

Mods: This might be worth flagging for deletion. I hope forum members aren't so neglectful as for this story to be useful.

We had a good one towed into the shop a couple of weeks ago. It was a 2002 Explorer 4.0 Gas (not flex) with about 130k miles. The complaint was that it'd been suffering from a lack of power for a little over a year and all of a sudden refused to start. Also, battery is now discharged.

After swapping in a known good used battery, we saw that it had no stored codes or KOEO. Truck will fire once or twice but fail to run at WOT but will not fire at all at lesser throttle angles. HEI type spark tester at post #1 of coilpack showed spark. Fuel pressure during cranking was at 90 psi, which is too high (by 30 pis) according to Alldata, but ALLDATA lists only the running fuel pressure for this vehicle, so high pressure might be a problem or 90 PSI cranking might be close enough to normal. A noid light shows injector pulse.

A check as to the appearance of the plugs reveals that they are wet with fuel (no surprise) and look very worn. Gap is measured at about 0.098 to 0.107 or about twice spec. New Autolite double platinum plugs are installed. No change.

Considering the wear and gap of the plugs we look at the coilpack again. The third coil has no output, so there's no need to get out the DVOM. We install a new coil.

Now we've got spark at all terminals of the coilpack but still no behavioral change. As cranking sounds normal, we consider exhaust backpressure before worrying about a compression test. As I'm not the tech with the work order, the vacuum gage (I like this as a quick test for exhaust restriction) stays in it's box and the upstream O2 sensors are unscrewed. Exploder starts and runs with O2s removed. A new catalytic converter assembly is ordered.

Next day: Cat assembly installed. Truck runs fairly well. Ship it.
Following day: customer returns. The new complaint is that it sounds funny when I do this (depress accelerator fully with trans in Park.) We tell the customer not to do that and to please go away.

I expect we'll put in a Jasper tranny within a year and an engine within 2 years.

Moral: Neglecting your vehicle can be just as expensive as abusing it. If you're going to break the thing, keep up on the maintenance so the money you save can easily cover the repairs.

 

[Donner]

Hmmm... I'm not sure about that first line of yours, but I'm curious about telling a customer to go away. This was not said aloud?

As you know, neglect and/or abuse can fall under two categories: Ignorance or Willfull Acts. But when would either warrant telling a customer to go away? I'm befuddled.

 

[JohnJ]

Donner:
Yes, it was said aloud. There were conversations with the customer throughout the repair process. Sometimes when a customer is exceptionally difficult to talk with this can bring frustration. That sort of frustration can be a bigger problem than a big repair ticket is worth. Sure, he'll probably be spending a few thousand dollars every few months and it sounds nice to get that money, but really, it isn't worth the bother.

<rant>It's not that I have a problem with someone working or playing hard with their vehicle. I don't really have any complaint about him intentionally abusing it in ways tat don't qualify as work or play either, as it's his vehicle to do with as he pleases. If he knows maintenance is needed (which he did know) and doesn't do it, well, that's fine too. It's his truck to do with as he pleases.

Where I begin to see a problem is when he decides to waste a lot of mechanics' time complaining about how it should be okay to do these things to the truck and it shouldn't be a problem and how bad the truck is for not being indestructable and how we are mean for wanting to get paid for our work and some parts.</rant>

 

[blue_goose]

The same thing happened to my X, except it happened overnight. turns out one of the pre cats or both self destructed and blocked up the rear cat to the point of it not running. the thing is, it happened overnight. Got 23 mpg right before that, started it up the next day and it bogged down until it just wondn't run the next day. eventually it was narrowed down to the cat being bad. I first checked fuel pump, fuel pressure, maf, hooked up a code reader (no codes), flushed the gas tank, pulled the plugs, checked spark, checked the intake, and checked every powertrain-related sensor. so if you have checked everything else, remove a O2 sensor or 2 and if it starts then its very possible your cat is the problem. let me know if you have more questions about the details. BTW: I baby this thing most of the time and upkeep it very well both mechanically andn aesthetically, although I am the second owenr, getting it about a year ago.

 

[JohnJ]

If it happened overnight like that with no warning it's likely that the upstream cat burned it's mesh during high temerature operation.

With no driveability problems and no check engine light as a warning there are a couple of things to keep your eye out for. One is an O2 sensor being out of calibration. It's going to cost you more to test the O2s than to replace them, so it might be worth your while to get new ones than to risk having to replace the cats again after a repeat failure.

You also want to keep an eye out for any pinging. If you have any pinging you need to find out why and fix it.

You also need to be sure you aren't having an oil contamination problem. If you do your own oil changes this shouldn't be a problem but a lot of quicky-lube guys and quite a few actual mechanics overfill oil without any care as to what it can do to someone's cats. If your truck pumps any blue smoke out the tailpipe that requires immediate attention if you plan to continue running with cats.

If you picked up the truck secondhand fairly recently (less than 1 year) I wouldn't be too worried about any of that though. There are dozens of things the previous owner could have done that would shorten the life of the cats... things that you probably won't likely be doing.

 

[BrooklynBay]

How would a clogged catalytic converter be a sign of abuse or poor maintenance? Was it because he had an on going problem for a year, and didn't take care of it sooner? Sometimes people neglect things until they become worse. Life gets in the way (work, family, doctors, house repairs, school, etc).

 

[aldive]

Sounds like a repair facility with a bad attitude. I would never go there.

 

[Donner]

JohnJ, I am flabbergasted by this one... A company telling clients aloud to go away?? What to make of this I haven't a clue... but if I went to a company, any company, spending or wasting my money - and I was told to go away - all hell would break loose (really).

The customer is all there is in business, ranting or not, you can't survive as a business without customers. I'd prefer an @ss of a customer - such as myself - to an insufficient amount of customers. You won't stay in business by telling customers to go away - aloud at that. (Personally, if the customer had hauled off and busted your lip, it would have been justified. Would you want your family members yelled at and mistreated? If this happens to you, will you walk away?)

 

[blue_goose]

If it happened overnight like that with no warning it's likely that the upstream cat burned it's mesh during high temerature operation.

With no driveability problems and no check engine light as a warning there are a couple of things to keep your eye out for. One is an O2 sensor being out of calibration. It's going to cost you more to test the O2s than to replace them, so it might be worth your while to get new ones than to risk having to replace the cats again after a repeat failure.

You also want to keep an eye out for any pinging. If you have any pinging you need to find out why and fix it.

You also need to be sure you aren't having an oil contamination problem. If you do your own oil changes this shouldn't be a problem but a lot of quicky-lube guys and quite a few actual mechanics overfill oil without any care as to what it can do to someone's cats. If your truck pumps any blue smoke out the tailpipe that requires immediate attention if you plan to continue running with cats.

If you picked up the truck secondhand fairly recently (less than 1 year) I wouldn't be too worried about any of that though. There are dozens of things the previous owner could have done that would shorten the life of the cats... things that you probably won't likely be doing.

I have heard a sound that could be a pinging. it sounded more like the sound a sticky valve makes on a ohc such as the one in our 87 302, but i know its not that because i have the sohc. it was kinda a higher pitch sticky valve sound, or a dull pinging maybe, basically a mix between a sticky valve and a pinging, and it happens rarley, so I havn't been able to do much with it.

I too believe that the mesh got burned up for some reason, but as to what that reason is, I don't know. I change my own oil, so that shouldnt be an issue. I also got the vehicle a year and a month ago, have put about 8k on since then, and it was 90% highway. I know the owner did the basics of preventative maintence (oil every 3k, whatever else Ford told him needed to be done), but outside of that he didn't touch it (he didnt know the 4x4 didn't work, didn't know it needed new brakes, etc) so it could have definitly been his fault. I will look into the O2's also.

Basically, I have occasionally heard a noise that shouldn't be there and its not big enough to concern me a whole lot, but I would like to find out what it is if it comes back. also, i don't believe the cat is my fault, although I am trying to find out why it went and will go from there. I also would like to look into it possibly running lean a little more.

 

[JohnJ]

How would a clogged catalytic converter be a sign of abuse or poor maintenance? Was it because he had an on going problem for a year, and didn't take care of it sooner? Sometimes people neglect things until they become worse. Life gets in the way (work, family, doctors, house repairs, school, etc).

The clogged cat isn't the sign of abuse or poor maintenance. 130k miles on original spark plugs with a gap at twice spec in combination with the coilpack with an internal short however... that absolutely indicates neglect. Yes, sometimes it can be necessary to let a problem go on for a little while but this clearly had been going on for more than a little while.

As far as the abuse goes, the abuse is the combination of both neglect and hard use. The hard use was apparent in the man's driving style.

Now, if someone wants to drive their car hard AND ignore all of it's problems until it refuses to go anymore that's their decision. The higher cost of repairs and depending on what problems there are possibly wasted fuel or safety issues just might be of less importance than immediate down time.

I am just the mechanic and he isn't really harming me by this. In a way this behavior just puts money in my pocket so I won't complain although I will try to explain or advise sometimes.

When I have to hear about how the manufacturer made a defective product that requires maintenance that's going to annoy me. When the customer repeatedly explains that the problem that has been found is impossible that becomes a hindrance. When the customer asks questions repeatedly and and ignores the answers just to keep asking again and again in a different way taking up time that could be used to actually do work...

If I worked at a restaurant and a customer ordered a fish soup but then went on for hours trying to convince me that it would be fine to just boil some water and put it in a bowl for him and charge him for the water but that his stomach should be full forever as a result of eating this fish soup (which is really just hot water) I might not want him as a repeat customer especially if the man had already died of starvation months before he first showed up to order this soup.

 

[skoal_mint]

Come work in northern ontario, where most people work in the bush and beat their trucks up.
It's part of life and you should of known what you were getting into befor you came into this business

But we have told some customers that we are not going to work on their vechile anymore, either because their last mechanic was a tool and rednecked everything or its so rusted that every part you remove you gotta fix 2 more thing becasue bolts break/strip ( then they complain well why did you fix all these when only this was broken )