1999 stalled after plugs, wires and fuel filter, help please

[dukcaln]

The maf was tested with a scanner. Plugged to ob port from what I was told.
Plugs put I. Where platnium plugs, gapped according to spec. No fuel contamination. That's been ruled out. Waiting for can sensor today.

 

[dukcaln]

Update

No start. New plugs again. New can sensor. No start still. Plenty spark. Fuel pressure great, checked compression all @ 160. Now what?

 

[rb142]

Go back to basics. Fuel, air, spark, timing, compression. One of 'em is missing.

You said you have good fuel pressure. How is the fuel volume? Are the injectors working? Are you flooding with fuel?

Any air restrictions, like a severe exhaust restriction?

You said you have lots of spark, but is it on the right cylinders(order) with the right timing?

It may seem like everything is right, but one of these basic things is wrong. (I'd guess spark timing or injectors.) You have to start with which one is missing, and then you can move on to why it is missing. (Not trying to trivialize your problem or the frustration. But when you are stuck, it helps to simplify the problem as much as possible.)

 

[2000StreetRod]

use the scanner

Use the scanner to read the engine coolant temperature. If the sensor connection is bad the mixture may not be rich enough for the engine to start.

Use the scanner to read the TPS values from closed throttle to WOT.

Did the mechanic use the scanner to record the MAF counts before and while cranking the starter?

Did he read the engine speed before and while cranking the starter? That tests the crankshaft position sensor.

 

[dukcaln]

so this is what was done again today. rolled into shop after sitting a few days. tried to start and it cranked then back a slight backfire out the intake and then just cranks. so we did the following

drained oil, had fuel in it. changed all plugs out, where wet. compression all cylinders checked out at 160. fuel pressure was in range. Spark was verified again. still only cranks, no start. now we are going to try to verify the inj are getting signal by checking each separate.

rb142
So how do we verify the volume of fuel? pressing the valve when turning over the motor? we are flooding while cranking

how do we verify or test to see if it is on the right cylinders(order) with the right timing?

2000, to use the scanner to read the coolant tempt, what should it read if the car is just turning over? What MAF counts should we see while cranking? Should I just buy a new Maf?

just asking these questions to relay to my mechanic, so i seem some what educated. He may know the answers, but he is even scratching his head on this one.

I really am appreciated of all your help guys

 

[dukcaln]

ok I talked to my uncle who put me in contact with a retired ford tech. According to him it should run, Lol

He said it sounds like the inj are holding open, check for a pinched wire or find the cause for the inj to stay open. He also said it could be intermittent spark from a bad ignition module, he suggest to change it. He stated that if the spark is being checked and it has visual spark, it still could be intermittent spark or faulty ignition module.

does this sound possible as well

 

[dukcaln]

side note

my buddy did say that the cam sensor per the scanner is not reading any rmp while turning over and it briefly registers 150rmp when he stop cranking, that was discovered late this afternoon when I left as he was going over all his test again

 

[Bobmbx]

I may have missed it in the various posts, but how do you know you're getting spark?

Have you pulled a the plug wires, inserted a spare plug and grounded the plug while cranking? You'll see the spark.

Your engine should be running. I know that doesn't help, but the work you've done to check the possible causes all point to the fact the it should, at a minimum, be firing.

This is a real stumper. Still no codes?

 

[Bobmbx]

ok I talked to my uncle who put me in contact with a retired ford tech. According to him it should run, Lol

He said it sounds like the inj are holding open, check for a pinched wire or find the cause for the inj to stay open. He also said it could be intermittent spark from a bad ignition module, he suggest to change it. He stated that if the spark is being checked and it has visual spark, it still could be intermittent spark or faulty ignition module.

does this sound possible as well

Not with the symptoms you've described. If it was intermittent PCM failure, the engine would run intermittently or rough.

Is it possible that someone filled your gas tank with water?

 

[dukcaln]

just racking my brain on this, is it possible to be a bad pcm?

 

[2000StreetRod]

using the scanner

You can read the engine coolant temperature (ECT), the TPS value, and the MAF AD Count with the key in the on position. Since the engine hasn't run for days the ECT should be about the average ambient temperature for the previous several hours - maybe 70 degrees in the morning. The TP Relative should be 0 at closed throttle and vary smoothly to about 750 at WOT. The corresponding TP Absolute would be 190 to 940. I don't have any datalogs for the stock MAF sensor available but I would guess the MAF AD Count should be less than 10 with the ignition on and around 50 with the engine cranking at around 200 rpm.

Disconnect the ignition noise suppressor (capacitor) from the wiring harness to the coilpack. They will sometimes short causing ignition problems. Make sure the coilpack connector is locked in position.

The injectors have battery voltage applied when the ignition is on and fire when the PCM grounds the opposite side allowing current to flow. It is extremely unlikely that all the wires from the injectors would be shorted keeping all of the injectors turned on. I suspect the engine is flooding because when the starter is cranked the injectors fire but the fuel isn't ignited due to an ignition fault. Holding the accelerator to the floor when cranking the starter will prompt the PCM to disable the injectors just like in the old days with carbs.

 

[dukcaln]

so my buddy only had a little time to work on the explorer today. He disconnected the fuel pump and then sprayed starting fluid into the intake and it still would not fire. Just turned over. He then disconnected the exhaust to rule out obstruction and still no start. So if the engine wouldn't start with starting fluid with the pump disconnected it must be a spark issue right?

We replaced the coil, plugs, wires. Crank sensor was replaced by the first shop that did the tune up I believe. still nothing

We will double check the crank sensor, since the cam sensor is new.

2000, I mentioned all the above to him in my conversation today about the maf, ect and tps. He said that he checked those. So no what?

Should I just get a new tps and ect anyways and replace.

Why wont it fire over with the fuel pump disconnected and starting fluid applied?

 

[2000StreetRod]

don't replace good parts

Using a scanner to check out a component not only tests the component but also the electrical circuit. It would be a waste of time and money to replace the TPS, MAF sensor, crankshaft position sensor and ECT sensor if the scanner shows them good.

The essential things for the engine to start are:
1. Correctly timed spark
2. Correct Air/Fuel ratio (not a stale charge & good gas)
3. Adequate compression
4. Unobstructed exhaust

Considering them in reverse order:
4. The exhaust has been disconnected eliminating obstructed exhaust.
3. The compression on all cylinders is 160 psi - a little low but should be adequate for a cold engine.
2. There is normal fuel pressure at the rail Schrader valve. Some of the spark plugs were wet from fuel and there was fuel in the oil so there is no shortage of fuel. You probably used fresh gas after replacing the fuel pump. There was no fuel in the vacuum hose to the fuel damper so its diaphragm probably isn't leaking significantly. I suggest that you connect a hand vacuum pump to the fuel damper vacuum port and confirm it holds vacuum. The fuel pump was disconnected and starting fluid was sprayed into the intake manifold and the engine wouldn't start. That tests for a shortage of fuel but not an excess of fuel. I suggest that you leave the fuel pump disconnected, open the throttle plate to midway, and then crank the starter. That should rapidly lean the AFR in the head intake ports and combustion chambers to eliminate excess fuel as the problem source. If the engine fires then you know that the spark timing is good and you have an AFR issue.
1. You have confirmed spark at the plugs and replaced almost all of the ignition related components. The battery voltage to the coilpack primary winding is lower when the starter is cranking then when the engine is running. Did you try disconnecting the ignition noise suppressor (capacitor) at the coilpack? Use the scanner to read the spark when cranking the starter. I don't remember the stock value but my engine with the M90 installed has 8 degrees of advance when the starter is cranking.

As a side note, when I rewired my engine wiring harness for the M90 installation I inadvertently omitted the power source wire to the driver side injectors. My engine started and ran fairly smoothly on just the passenger side injectors but had less power than a moped with two riders.

 

[dukcaln]

2000, first of thank you for your continued help. My buddy called me this afternoon and said that he suspects a issue with the harness or connector to the crank sensor. he said something about signal at the ecm but not the sensor, he suspects a wiring issue with the crank sensor as a possibility, I will pass on the suggestion for cranking with throttle 1/2 open.

I will double check with hime to se about the fuel dampner again

 

[1998Exp]

Hopefully, your buddy is finally onto the real culprit. For what it's worth, some years ago I had a similar no-start challenge with a Grand Marquis of the same vintage. Turned out that the previous owner (or their not-so-great mechanic) was probing the crank sensor signal by poking pins into the harness next to the ECM connector, and over time the broken insulation let water enter and corrode the wires.

2000, first of thank you for your continued help. My buddy called me this afternoon and said that he suspects a issue with the harness or connector to the crank sensor.
...

 

[dukcaln]

Well had to have it towed to the ford dealer. $125 diagnostic fee and hopefully they can tell me what is wrong. We tried everything we could. I'll update you all Monday afternoon if I hear anything.

Thank you all for your patience and assistance.

Fingers crossed!!

 

[dukcaln]

Monday update. Well I got a call from the service tech at the ford dealer. They informed me that the tech said that the car was jumping timing in the #1 cylinder and was going to work a quote up and have the actual tech call me because I have a few questions. So then the tech called and he said they really dont think the chain broke and thought the tension-er or something went bad that caused the timing to jump. They said 11hrs and $1990 to fix. he said even with the slight jump in timing the compression was good,but its off enough to make a no start, such as we have.

Well with 189k miles I think its going to be time to part it out and move on.

 

[1998Exp]

Just out of curiosity; is this the V6 SOHC engine?

Monday update. Well I got a call from the service tech at the ford dealer. They informed me that the tech said that the car was jumping timing in the #1 cylinder ...

Well with 189k miles I think its going to be time to part it out and move on.

 

[dukcaln]

Just out of curiosity; is this the V6 SOHC engine?

yes, why you ask

 

[2000StreetRod]

bad luck

Monday update. Well I got a call from the service tech at the ford dealer. They informed me that the tech said that the car was jumping timing in the first cylinder and was going to work a quote up and have the actual tech call me because I have a few questions. So then the tech called and he said they really dont think the chain broke and thought the tension-er or something went bad that caused the timing to jump. They said 11hrs and $1990 to fix. he said even with the slight jump in timing the compression was good,but its off enough to make a no start, such as we have.

Well with 189k miles I think its going to be time to part it out and move on.

Obviously the chain didn't break or there would be zero compression on all of the cylinders in the right bank. I've never heard of the crankshaft to jackshaft chain slipping which would cause all of the cylinders in both banks to drop in compression. My guess is that the right cassette guide broke and the right chain slipped but that should have resulted in less compression in the right bank than the left bank and you posted they were all at 160. As I posted that's low and probably comparable to the chain slipping one link. The only way to replace the right cassette is to either pull the engine or the transmission.

In this area a 1999 in good condition except for timing chain issues can be purchased for $800 to $1200 depending on odometer reading. Yours with all those new parts would be a good opportunity for someone with the capability to replace the cassette rather than pay a mechanic.

I'm sorry for your bad luck!