AC "working" but not cold. | Ford Explorer Forums

  • Register Today It's free!

AC "working" but not cold.

Mr_Evil

Active Member
Joined
January 9, 2003
Messages
65
Reaction score
0
City, State
Amarillo TX
Year, Model & Trim Level
2000 F250
It's been a long time since I've posted here, but I'm at my wit's end as to what to do about my '92 Explorer XL. 2 years ago my Compressor seized while going down the highway (my guess is the leaks in the system finally let all the oil loose) I replaced the compressor last year and had my lines rebuilt by a local shop that specializes in such things and had cold air until I discovered an additional leak in the Condensor core. The new compressor sat in the vehicle with the clutch disconnected (so I'd have defog in the winter)

A few weeks ago I replaced the condensor core along with the Accumulator, Orifice tube, and a flush of the system. I added an appropriate amount of oil to replace what was lost when I removed the old condensor. I hooked up my manifold gauges and proceeded to add R134a back in. The system pressure on the Low and High side were working, but with it being hot here in Texas the compressor couldn't draw the low side down to cycle sitting in my driveway. I get three cans in (which is normally what it takes and judging by others here is the proper amount) Unfortunately despite my gauges showing a differential in pressure the air coming out of the vents was hot.

At first I thought the heater core wasn't getting cut off so I move the slider over to warm and it blew like a heat gun. Even hotter than before. I checked and double checked everything and wasted several cans of freon thinking I screwed something up. I can't find anything wrong with the system itself.

Is my blend door and lack of a Heater bypass valve to blame? If so, what do I do to fix this issue so I can NOT sweat my unmentionables off (I'm a computer field tech and I think customer's are starting to not like me showing up sweating like a pig.) I've been driving my F250 for out of town calls, but the Explorer is so much easier to park and has more room for parts. Not to mention a bit easier on fuel with cheaper tires and oil changes.
 



Join the Elite Explorers for $20 each year or try it out for $5 a month.

Elite Explorer members see no advertisements, no banner ads, no double underlined links,.
Add an avatar, upload photo attachments, and more!
.





First off, 3 cans of 134a is too much. If this is a converted system (which by definition is has to be since 92's came stock only using R-12), you probably need more like 24 oz of R-134a. What are your high/low side pressures? I bet your operating low side is probably 100 psi or higher.

Worry not about blend door issues - The 92 did not have a blend door.

I'm thinking you have an overcharged system. In an overcharged system the low side will never get low enough to cycle the compressor.
 






It's not overcharged, and it didn't take all of the 3 cans, it has more or less 24 oz in it. I had half a can from last year when I was trying to find the leak so I have a spare full can sitting on my shelf. It took that, a full can, and half of another. (12 oz cans)

Pressure on the low side sitting in my driveway this morning would get well below 25psi when I revved up the engine (seems the low pressure switch isn't working so I'm replacing it tomorrow) however, despite that, the Air conditioner still doesn't get the least bit cold. In fact it can be quite a bit warmer than the temperature outside the vehicle depending on what time of day it is. The low side pressure at idle speed would go about 45psi. My High side gauge isn't working so I don't know what my high pressure is.

It doesn't matter what vent setting the climate controls are put to, Max AC, vent, floor, defog, they all blow air that's slightly warmer than ambient temperature. The actuator in the plenum is switching the vents properly.

The system was dealer-converted to 134a in '97 when my dad originally bought the truck.

Is there anything else I should look at or replace? I'm really lost as what to do next and about to give the neighborhood mechanic a huge sum of money to fix it for me. The system doesn't leak. It held a good vaccum for several days after I replaced the condensor.
 






That additional info helps. My 92 has never blown vent at ambient.... from that day I got it and I squawked about it. How much above ambient is your vent ? (Just curious).

You are clearly pulling low side down enough to produce cold vent temps....

I'd focus on the orifice tube at this point. (And replace the low cutout).

My initial thought with an overcharge was a flooded evaporator.... at this point I wonder how much flow there is across it... hence the Q about the orifice tube... yet that does not explain HOT vents.

Still checking your vent temp with heat set to off might give us a clue if somehow the manually operated heater door was busted.... so check your vent temps first on vent with heat off.

That's my best advice for now.

ps. just for others... in a converted system, you usually run about 75% of the R-12 volume for R-134a. In the case of first gens the R-12 was 32 oz. YOu do the math.
 






An easy thing to do is feel the temperature along the orifice line. That is, feel the tubing and see if it's cold. It should be hot before the orifice and cold after the orifice. The input and output of the evaporator should be cold and into the accumulator. Out of the accumulator it will be less cold to the compressor. Out of the compressor it will be hot enough to burn and so on on into the condensor and back to the orifice.

What this tells you is whether the system is working. If the evaporator lines aren't cold, nothing in the ventilation system is the culprit.

FWIW temperature drops anywhere along the lines would point to an obstruction. Hence the difference on either side of the orifice. It's a calibrated obstruction.

Take care around moving machinery and the high side will get hot enough to burn.
 






The vent puts out air slightly warmer than ambient with the AC on or off with the temperature control all the way to Cold. When I set the temp to Heat it gets nice and toasty (of course when it's 95 outside and the car's been sitting in the sun, almost burning hot). I haven't felt around on the lines to see if there's anything hot or cold on them. I may need to try another orifice tube anyway despite changing it when I replaced the condensor. Thanks for all your help so far guys.
 






The 1992 R-12 condensor is actually a little undersized for R-134.... I understand you can swap in a later year condensor... just as a FYI. I do not think this is related to your problem though. Let us know what you find.
 






Well, of all the lines I can reach when the engine's running nothing is cold. Only as hot as everything else in the engine compartment. The High side is of course nice and hot because of compression. I know the suction line should be getting cold since it does that on my F250.

To the best of my knowledge the Condensor I bought from Auto Zone is intended for 134a.
 






Some review:

What's wrong with my Air Conditioning?
A number of things can happen to make your A/C quit working. Here, we'll go over some of the common problems, and what you can do to fix it.

Leaks / Low Refrigerant
No A/C system is completely, 100% sealed. Over the years, small refrigerant particles will leak out, up to 1/2 ounce per year. On smaller-capacity systems, this will become noticeable a lot quicker than a larger capacity system. In this case, the most practical thing to do is simply add a bit more refrigerant. You will want to hook up a set of manifold gauges to make sure that the system has at least some pressure in it before you add refrigerant, because if the system is completely empty, you might have a most severe leak. At best, you will still have AIR in the system, and you want NO air in there.
Symptoms of low refrigerant include rapid cycling of the compressor clutch, or clutch will not engage, little or no cooling, very oily spots on A/C components.
A severe leak will require repair or component replacement. To find a leak, there must be some refrigerant in the system. An electronic 'sniffer' or dye are the most effective ways of finding a leak. Most A/C shops can perform this service for a minimal charge. Some retail auto parts stores also loan or rent tools for this.
Once the leak is identified, the component should be repaired or replaced, and the system serviced.
*Tip* - Evaporator leaks can be difficult to find, since the evaporator is usually not easily accessible, located in the dash of the vehicle. With dye in the system, place a white, preferably unused baby diaper under the evaporator drain tube. Moisture will drip on to the diaper. If there is dye in there, you'll know it!

Poor Airflow
One of the most-missed problems is poor airflow. Your A/C comes on, but it's not very cold. If you have a gauge, the high side pressure seems awfully high.
There are a couple of quick, easy things to check. First, make sure the condenser is debris-free, and that the fins are not all bent over. The condenser is located right in front of the radiator. Bugs, rocks, plastics bags, etc. covering the front of it prevent air from passing through, cooling not only your radiator, but also the refrigerant in the condenser.
All engines have either a fan clutch or radiator / condenser cooling fans. Fan clutch go out all the time. The fan clutch is located between the radiator and the engine, and has a big fan blade attached to it. With the engine on, that fan should be turning very fast, and moving a lot of air, TOWARDS the engine. Running correctly, you will not want to get your fingers near it. I recently repaired a 1996 Chevy truck that had blown the compressor shaft seal. While diagnosing the system, I noticed that the fan was barely turning. I could actually stop it with my hand. (not recommended for the non-professional) Because there was poor airflow, the pressure (pressure is temperature) built up from the condenser to the compressor, and was more than the compressor shaft seal could handle.
If the vehicle has an electric fan, make sure it (or they) comes on, and that the air is fast, and moving TOWARDS the engine. If the fan(s) does not come on, check the fuse. If that's not it, you may need to replace the fan.
*Tip* - You can confirm proper airflow by TEMPERATURE TESTING. A good thermometer that can be touched to the inlet and outlet of the condenser will confirm proper airflow. You should see a 20 to 40 degree drop from the inlet to the outlet of the 2 condenser pipes. For example, if you measure the temperature at the inlet (where it comes from the compressor) and have a temperature of 160 degrees, the outlet should be 100-140 degrees. Less than 20 degrees difference usually indicates poor airflow. MORE than 40 degrees usually indicates a restriction in the condenser.

Restrictions
A restiction is a condition where some piece of debris has lodged in a component, and is 'restricting' the flow of refrigerant. Condenser restrictions are the most common. Most late-model condensers have very small passages, as low as 6mms! When there is a restriction in the system, the flow of refrigerant is greatly slowed, or sometimes stopped completely. The blockage causes pressure to build up behind the restriction, and will cause damage to the components behind it.
The most effective way to locate a restriction is with temperature testing. With a good thermometer, temperature (which is pressure!) can be measured ANYWHERE on the system. Large drops in temperature can be identified and repaired. For example, a restircted condenser...If the inlet measures 160 degrees (about 295 psi) and the outlet measures 90 degrees (about 103 psi), it means the refrigerant is slowly leaking past a restriction. Because the refrigerant spends more time in the condenser, it has time to cool of more. Problem is, that 295 psi will continue to build back, and will eventually blow a seal somewhere, probably in the compressor.
Some restrictions can be repaired by flushing the restricted component, but parallel-flow condensers usually need to be replaced.

Improper Refrigerant Charge
As A/C systems become smaller and smaller, the amount of refrigerant in the system becomes critical. The correct charge for an A/C system has been calculated and engineered by vehicle manufacturers for optimum performance. Here are some tips to keep in mind when charging a system:
Charging with cans: A 12 ounce can of refrigerant gives you 12 ounces of refrigerant, right? Well, not always. If you are using a gauge set to charge, those hoses can hold up to 4 ounces of refrigerant themselves. On a 56 ounce capacity system, those 4 ounces might not make a big difference, but on a 1 pound system, you can bet it will. Also, notice how when you pull the can tap off, how the can wasn't quite empty? Yep, another ounce or 2 there.
Too much! Your A/C isn't quite cooling, so you run down to the parts store or a big box retail store, and buy a recharge kit. We in the industry call 'em suicide kits. You add a can of refrigerant. Well, with A/C, too much isn't better.

Retrofitting: Vehicles manufactured prior to 1993 and some 1994 originally came with R12 refrigerant. Because of the cost of that refrigerant, most folks opt to retrofit to R134a refrigerant. Problem is, there is no set standard for how much R134a refrigerant to use in an R12 system. There are many misconceptions about how much to use, and some people have come up with percentages of original charge. I've heard to use as little as 60% of the orginal charge!

So how do I know if I have the proper charge? Our old friend temperature testing can help determine if you have the proper charge. Orifice tube systems are the easiest and most accurately confirmed systems. It can be done on expansion valve systems, but you'll need to get on the evaporator side of the expansion valve.
Here's how: Measure the evaporator inlet pipe and record your temperature. Now measure the outlet pipe of the evaporator. Those 2 temperatures should be as close to equal as possible, at least within 5 degrees of each other. If the outlet is MORE than 5 degrees warmer than the inlet, you still need more refrigerant. If the outlet is MORE than 5 degrees cooler than the inlet, you have too much refrigerant in there.

Final tip: If your A/C is working, don't mess with. If you have an R12 system, you do NOT need to have it converted to R134a just because someone tells you that R12 is gone. If it's working, leave it alone.
If your system is working and sealed, you DO NOT need to replace your filter drier or accumulator. This is not a part that wears out. The only time you need to replace it is when the system is opened, or if you've had a leak that allows air (and moisture) into the system. If someone tells you you need to replace it every 3, 5 or 7 years, they're trying to sell you something.

_______________________________________________________________________

From:

http://reviews.ebay.com/A-C-Diagnosing_W0QQugidZ10000000000946036

_________________________________________________________________

Aloha, Mark

PS....my '94 Explorer (w/ factory R-134a) used a blue orifice tube. As a COMPARISON.......the Haynes book says ('94 Ford Explorer w/factory R-134a system)........at ambient air temp of 80 degrees F, hi velocity fan in front of the condenser, 1500 RPM.........22-50 low side and 160-250 high side pressure. Capacities: oil 7 oz and R-134a 2.25 lbs (36 oz).**Conversion capacities will differ, I've heard 80% of the R-12 figure was good, for a R-134a conversion**
 






My experience adding a heater-control valve to my '93 showed it did not lower vent temps.
 






Mark, I appreciate your response, but what you posted is stuff that's already been done. I KNOW I'm not overcharged, my condensor core is BRAND NEW as with near everything else in the system. The only thing that has not been changed has been the Evaporator core which has nothing wrong with it as far as I can tell. There are no leaks in the system, My Cooling fan and clutch were replaced last year and the clutch is functioning properly.

Now the shop I normally take my Explorer to for things like an alignment, ABS dump valve or faulty fuel pump doesn't seem too keen working on my Explorer since I've gone through and replaced everything myself "I don't like going over other people's tracks" is what the one guy said. I'll see if I can't get to the orifice tube if the shop still refuses to work on it (I gotta get the wheels realigned and my toe-out adjusted anyway) To see if it's the problem. I'm just tired of wasting money on refrigerant.
 






Thanks for the help fellas. It appears as though my "new" AC Compressor (made in Mexico POS that it is) has failed. After checking with another set of manifold gauges it appears as though the high side pressure isn't going over 150 psi. It looks like a new compressor and orifice are in order at the very least. If anyone has any clue as to where to get a decent Compressor that isn't a $200 paperweight I'm all ears.
 






The oriface tube is what should be giving you the pressure differential between the high side and low side..

At one time I was having no cooling on our '92. I hooked up the gauges and the low pressure was way high and the high pressure was lowish.

I checked my oriface tube and couldn't find it.. aparently its got blown into the evaporator (and its still there).. I put another oriface tube in (a variable one seems to work the best) and then my a/c worksfine (blows 40 degrees below ambient)

I was going to replace my evaporator, but didn't have the time/money.

Soo, you might be lucky and just have no orifice tube restricing the flow like you should.

~Mark
 






A clarification regarding how our air conditioners work.

The orifice has a hole in it. There is liquid on one side and pressure forces the liquid through this tiny hole which vaporizes it, something like a sprayer on the end of a garden hose.

When liquid is changed to a vapor like this a miracle occurs, it absorbs heat. This is why the evaporator follows the orifice, blowing cabin air through the evaporator transfers the heat to the expanding vapor inside the evaporator. Out of the top of the evaporator is low pressure gas.

The low pressure gas, and any suspended liquid refrigerant, goes to the accumulator, where any remaining liquid falls to the bottom leaving only low pressure gas. This is where the LP port is.

This low pressure gas is compressed by the compressor into ..... hot high pressure gas. Through the muffler and to the condensor. Just before the condensor is the high pressure port. At the condensor another miracle occurs, blowing air through the condensor removes the heat from the hot HP gas and turns it into a liquid. This is the liquid at the orifice that started this. So the orifice is the device that provides a difference between liquid and vapor. I'm too lazy to look up the thread with a pic that describes this.

A new bad compressor isn't as unusual as it should be. You may be able to return it, no doubt they will ask you if you repaced the accumulator and the orifice, it's generally in the warranty small print. Common cause for failures in new compressors is insufficient oil or crud from the system. And sometimes, as in your case, **** happens. I distrust the Chinese rebuilds.

Good Luck!
 






If anyone has any clue as to where to get a decent Compressor that isn't a $200 paperweight I'm all ears.
I'm glad that you took the pressures again. Though, sad to hear about the compressor being BAD. Or, maybe it is a clogged orifice tube.

Anyway, here is an internet site that I have used in the past w/good results:

http://www.ackits.com/


Aloha, Mark

PS....the accumulator that I bought from them was the wrong size (too long)....though, they said it was correct......I made it work/fit w/a little modification.
 






The dirtbags said because it's beyond a year they won't guarantee it. Despite the fact the compressor wasn't used a WEEK until the leaky condensor was discovered. The system sat with oil, and a minimal charge in it until I replaced the condensor this year (I even unplugged the clutch so it wouldn't come on). Don't EVER buy anything from Auto Air of Oklahoma! I would expect that kind of crap from the big chains, but I figured these guys had better service. I should have asked for a refund after the first compressor they sent me seized while we were charging it.

I'm thinking of just getting a new Motorcraft from RockAuto...anybody think it'll be any good?

I'd pay $500 for a lifetime warranty compressor, but to me a compressor with a 1 year warranty isn't worth the core charge ESPECIALLY if it won't last any time at all.
 






Beware........Most compressor warrantees are only good, if you change the accumlator and orifice tube at the same time along with the compressor........check the small print.

Also, maybe buying locally, might be better for "exchange" purposes?

Check out the Auto Zone site........they're large and can be found locally.

http://www.autozone.com/shopping/home.htm

Or, NAPA.

http://www.napaonline.com/masterpages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=421&retPageId=430&CatId=3&SubCatId=3

Aloha, Mark

PS....I have bought some parts from RockAuto....they were good parts and they had fast delivery....but, "RETURNS?" Sorrry, I never had that experience w/ them.
 






Featured Content

Back
Top