ARRRGH, mechanics

[jimbo74]

i am one of those crappy mechanics as stated above... it isnt that we arent qualified... i am semi qualified.. i know a good deal about cars... i had ROP Training in high school... basically it s a work experience autoshop where the grade is based on performance and tests and general knowlegde and professionalism... such as arrivng to class on time, proper attire, attitude, etc...... i also used to work at americas tire company.... now i work for wheel works...... we doe have ase certifications, but not everyone has them, normally only 1 guy per store... i dont currently have any, but the tests are coming up soon, so i will take them and see how i do... i am thinking brakes and suspension......

 

[ExplorerEB96]

Let me say one thing here to defend

Midas......yes....I agree if I were just the average person coming in the door to the local Midas shop...I am sure they would "recommend" lots of things..... first off I know these guys well!!! they are not looking to make the extra almighty $$$ from me......cause they know they won't get it......second I have a 96 with about 2 reglazing of the rotors behind me.... new shoes and pads...with a lifetime warranty since i know them they dont require me to pay labor so the brakes are usually done at no cost..... but there was no way they could write off the cost of the rotors.... regardless....I'm no moron I dont sit in the coffee room during anything and I know my rotors were thin (hey they were the originals with 121,000 on them) now....you may have a great shop....fine but not ALL dealerships (even Ford) are the same. I have seen some moronic stunts in the Ford garage as well as others...... I have seem cars roll off the lifts etc..... I stopped going to the Ford dealership that I bought my Explorer from because they were the ones that wanted to "sell" me all the useless items and services in order to finance their snazzy new showroom and Service dept .......so I looked around....I went to another Ford dealership and I am very happy with the services they provide me... but......I don't think that Ford dealerships are the one and only place you should go..... as a matter of fact....I still owe my mechanic at Texaco $75 for my inspection and emissions that he did last month.......uuhh yeah he let me drive away without paying, try doing that at the dealership... . and yeah I trust him (like he trusts that I will be by in a few days to pay my bill) because in the very beginning he knew that I knew a little about my truck....now with his help ....I know alot more.....matter of fact he is the one that taught me how to change my own oil "because why pay when you can do it yourself easily" I can't think of any repair that he has done to my truck without him showing me on my truck exactly what was wrong and exactly what it would "really" (not book labor) cost...... he hands me my Haynes and shows me..... I realize not many people have that type of mech.....but as consumers we need to learn to be proactive about these things....unless you like being ripped off...

Karol

 

[tenikiwon]

WOW

Msupertek, again no doubts in my mind that you know what you're doing.

My problems with my local ford, and closest one could be isolated incidents, but either way, and bad impression is a bad impression. I've personally never had work done at a dealership, except the place I bought it from which was not Ford.

I got a bad taste in my mouth and I hate having to pay for what I feel is a fairly easy job. I realize that some places try to throw in a bunch of extra stuff you may or may not need. I usually don't care, but the more and more I'm learning and doing my self the less it's worth the $60 an hour. And then when I try to do something myself I get "THE PARTS GUY" or the cracky service desk lady that is haveing a bad day and doesn't want a young kid with a SUV bugg'n her (I'm not that young, just have a baby face.)

I work in computers and I see many places charging WAY too much for easy repairs and then taking the lazy way out. I warrenty all my stuff to work when the customer gets it back. I know people probably grumble behind my back, but I'm not that big yet and I'm still in the 100% kiss arse phse

I know as a computer tech (similar to a mech) that you don't like people to tell you what to do, or how to do it, or that they know more than you because you are, as you said certified. I appriciate people that can admit when they are wrong or don't know. In this case despite what the book said. I can't believe that it would cost $300 + to unbolt the diffy cover, drain it, pull the axles out and put the pads on. This also only included the pads, not the hardware. Now, I've never done it myself except in school, but for $26 in parts + fluid that A LOT of labor.

I recently got a number to "a friend of a friend" that works for Ford 30miles away. I think I'll call them and give them a chance. Maybe I'll tell 'em you sent me 'cause you sure are argueing in defences on mechanics and Ford. But Amen brother, I needed it! Just needed to vent!

 

[dogfriend]

Re: Re: Cool

Originally posted by Robert
Any auto parts store should carry it in their tools section. It is a sort of plier type thingie. It's about 10" long and has a hook on one end and something to grip on the other. I didn't try it but when I was putting my springs back on, I saw where it would have been very handy to have. I think the loop end goes around one of the pins that hold the shoes on and the other end grips the end of the spring. You squeeze the pliers together and the spring should go right into place (in theory).

I think Robert is describing this:
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I have one of these (I once had a truck with drums at all 4 wheels), and it helps, but I think that I just used the Vice Grip Needle nose locking pliers to get the spring back on.

Get some of these if you don't already have them. They are great when you need them.

 

[aldive]

My experiences with Ford dealerships in various locations ( Atlanta, GA, Athens, GA, East Point, GA. Athens, GA, Tampa, FL, Sarasota, FL. Nokomis. FL ) has been less than rewarding.

I have yet to find a Dealer service department that didn’t try to add on something not required. Most do rather shabby work. Almost always they lie about the repair time..

I do almost all of my own repair work, but when there is a task I do not want to do or cannot do ( such as alignment ), I always go to a small independent repair shop.

If the “mechanic” does not hold ASE certifications, I am instantly out of there.

The small shop is an independent businessman and has to fo quality work at a fair price to insure repeat business.

 

[Robert]

Long reply, read if you care

Msupertek - If you are speaking the truth (and I believe you are) and your rates are what they say they are (and I have no reason to doubt you) then I wish your dealership was local to me. I've had far too many bad experiences from the three dealerships that are closest to me to forever swear that the only work they will ever perform on any of my vehicles will be for recalls. My 100K WG warranty just ran out (have 103K) so I don't ever see another need to let Ford touch my Explorer. The only reason I went there for work that WG covered was I wasn't paying the bill so I didn't care about the cost. I thought I was getting the best service by the most knowledgeable people available. The few repairs that I had made at my local mechanic were done for about 1/2 the price that Ford wanted. I have yet to have to take something back to him either for some other newly developed problem that wasn't there before I brought it in.

Here are a few of my more irritating experiences with my local Ford dealers:

1) I brought my Explorer in for them to finish installing my console correctly for the fourth time. Someone threw a 30lb. rock through my passenger side window which landed on my console. Insurance paid the bill for that, however while I was there I asked them to call my warranty company to get authorization to replace my bent seat tilt lever. I also asked him to check out my transfer case since on several occasions it wouldn't come out of Low or wouldn't go into Low. It also made loud grinding sounds at the time when it was acting up. WG refused since Ford had issued a TSB for it (one of their exclusions). The Service Advisor called me up to tell me that WG wouldn't cover the repairs. I told him not to replace it then and only complete the work I brought it in for. When I got there, they hadn't looked at my transfer case problem so he sat in my seat and switched it to Low and then back to Auto. It shifted fine at the time so he said there was nothing else he could do. When I went to pick up my keys, the invoice had 1/2 hour labor for them opening up my door and looking at my bent seat tilt lever and saying "yup it's bent". They also had 1/2 hour of diagnostic time for troubleshooting my transfer case "no problems found, couldn't verify comlaint". I argued with them about the charges until they reluctantly agreed to remove the 1/2 hour charge for the seat but the 1/2 hour charge for the transfer case would remain. They were oblivious to the fact that I had to bring my Explorer in there 4 times (costing me way more than 1/2 hour of my time) to get them to install my console correctly so that it didn't bounce around, had functioning vents in the rear and sat flush on the carpet.

2) A few days after getting my Explorer back from a different dealer for replacement of my throttle body under warranty I tried to use the cruise control. It stopped working immediately. I looked under the hood and noticed the screw that holds my cruise cable to the plastic right next to the throttle body was broke off. I took it back to the dealer to have the screw drilled out and replaced. A couple weeks later I went to pass some trucks when it didn't feel like my Explorer had the acceleration that it used to have. It felt like it didn't downshift to the right gear. I took it back again. Seven visits later (each time they tried something new) they came to the conclusion (after driving another '97 SOHC Sport) that mine definately didn't have the pep of the one on their lot. They called Ford, which told them that they've seen this before where the software gets corrupt and needs a new version (yeah, right). Anyway, the new version would be out in 5 weeks, bring it back then. Just before I was set to bring it in to have my GEM reflashed, I got to looking around under my hood. Not only did I find that two of the screws holding my plastic engine shield on were broken off with the screw heads glued to the top of the manifold so I wouldn't notice, but more importantly I found that the screw that they were supposed to drill out and replace was still there. Instead they installed a new screw about 1" closer to my throttle body to hold my cruise cable. What this did was changed the relationship of my cruise cable to my throttle cable by 1". It prevented my throttle cable from traveling the last 1" which is exactly what I told them it felt like. I drilled out the broken cable and reinstalled the cruise cable back to its original location and took it for a test drive back to the dealer. I showed the Shop Manager what I found and he admitted to being totally embarassed by what his Tech had done. In fact he drove my Explorer back to his Tech to show him (so he says). This "quick fix" by his Tech cost me 7 visits, 1 rental car (for 3 days) and countless aggrevations. It cost his shop a lot of needless warranty claims as well.

3) Third dealer. I had a "clunk" feeling right after coming to a complete stop. It sort of felt like someone was taping me from behind or I had a bowling ball in my cargo area. The problem turned out to be a dry slip yoke. This took several visits to find. The first time they greased my rubber dust boots. The second time they turned my rotors. The third time they found the dry slip yoke, only after removing my entire front end as the Service Advisor put it. A week lator I was over at my Mother's house parked on their sparkling clean driveway. When I went to leave I saw that there were several drops of transmission fluid and gear oil under my Explorer. My Explorer had never leaked a drop during its first 20K life. I took it back to the dealer and they found that they forgot to tighten up my auxillary transmission cooler lines and my front pinion seal was leaking.

I'm not telling you this to put dealers down or your credentials, only to explain why some of us have chosen to take our business someplace besides Ford.

 

[lonestar]

Since your e-brakes (drums) are independant of your stopping brakes (disk), why are you worried about replacing them. They should be fine unless you drove around with them on. You may just need to adjust the e-brake cable.

 

[Robert]

He might have found the same thing I found. At about 90K 3 out of 4 of my parking brake shoes were completely gone. The 4th was completely spiderwebbed and was flaking apart. I know for a fact that my Explorer has never been driven with my parking brakes on since I am the only one that drives it. When I checked them at 50K they looked OK other than some hair-line cracks in the material. The only thing I can think of is since the material is thin to begin with (about 1/8") the heat over the last 90K took its toll on them and caused them to fall apart. I use my parking brakes on average of maybe 3 times a week whenever I park on any kind of incline so they do get used occassionally.

 

[tenikiwon]

The brake tool was 6.99 at Autozone
with the other tool and a soda it came to $16


Thanks guys

 

[tenikiwon]

My driveway is quite steep and I like to use it when I have to park there daily.

Yes, on one side there was NOTHING for pads left

On the other side I could easily crack them off.

Truck has 94K on it.

 

[dogfriend]

My original e brake shoes also fell apart even though I almost never used them. They were replaced once under warrenty(11k) by the previous owner, then by me again at 45k because they were coming apart.

I inspected them when replacing the rotors at about 83K and they had not fallen apart, but did have a few cracks. I left them alone since they cost about $100 from the Ford dealer.

 

[Msupertek]

FORD CERTIFIED TECHNICIAN

Well I got price on the brake shoes for you vehicle from parts, they cost about $98, and can be put on for 1.5 hrs (my labor was off a little), this still should cost only around $200. I understand you trying to save money on the repair and do it yourself. I do the same. However if you have trouble $200 is what you are looking at plus or minus a few bucks, to have it repaired at the dealer. It is still cheaper than the garage you took it to previously.

Now to ROBERT. Sounds like you got a pretty crappy dealer near by. I am sorry to hear that, but just to let you know that is not how it works here. One of the first mistakes I see in your scenario is that the PART OF THE SERVICE ADVISORS JOB IS TO GET ACCURATE INFORMATION ON HOW TO DUPLICATE YOUR CONCERN. Since I am not there I don't know who screwed up, but I can tell you this. That sometimes customers come in with odd concerns that we cannot duplicate but they assure us that the event is taking place, My take is I have the customer road test the vehicle with me to duplicate the concern if I can not verify it myself. The car never leaves the shop unless it is fixed or the customer refuses to show me the noise, roughness, harshness or whatevern the concern is. If I cannot verify the concern, and the customer tries but is unsuccessful at recreating his concern. I have no choice but to " no problem found " the vehicle. If a concern is not present and there are no TSB, or SSM available on the concern how can I fix a problem that does not exist.
To some extent a customer must realize that if nothing is acting up, I can not fix NOTHING. I do try my best before giving up on a concern that is intermittent. Under warranty nothing is charged, but on a Customer Pay or Extended Warranty situation, Somebody needs to pay me for my time spent on the diag of this concern. That somebody is usually always the customer except in certain situations. I WOULDN'T ASK YOU TO WORK FOR FREE SO DON'T ASK ME TO. NOTE YOU ARE ONLY CHARGED A DIAG FOR YOU CONCERN 1 TIME, IF THE PROBLEM REOCCURS WITHIN 12 MONTHS 12K MILES AT MY DEALER WE ARE OBLIGATED TO WAVE THE DIAGNOSTIC FEE THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN CHARGED FOR THE SECOND TIME AROUND. I don't have a problem doing that, then the next thing we do is if you paid the diag fee and we no problem found it and you have an extended warranty, we will reimburse your fee to you and get reimbursed from your extended warranty company provided they cover the repair. Sounds like the dealer you went to has POOR LEADERSHIP.

 

[Msupertek]

FORD CERTIFIED TECHNICIAN

One more thing to all those independent garage mechanics who are trying to get certified and really care about doing a good job, my apoligy. I hope I didn't offend you with my previous statement. I too had to start somewhere. However its what you do with the knowledge you gain and how you try to become more sufficient in doing your job, while upholding your integrity. To all of you a pat on the back. This field is getting harder day by day to make a good living at it due to the few customers causing havac ruining further relations between techs and customers for the future. If your a tech I am sure you know what I am talking about. That's all I have to say.

 

[tenikiwon]

Amen

I know what you are talking about and as others have said I wish you were in my area.

I did start this off very negatively, but I was assumeing it wouldn't cost over $100 and I would have be willing to pay for this. Especially as you may not need to take the axles out. Either way. I was shocked and upset because I was hopeing that I wasn't going to waste the time to schedule it, take it in, and then have to wait and pick it up with nothing done.

I just guess that's what happens sometimes.

Thanks for the food for though, I have been trying and will continue to be more understanding with mechanics in the future.

 

[Robert]

Msupertek - My three experiences I posted were each from a different dealer (although two of them were owned by the same parent company - one was a Ford dealer, the other was a Lincoln/Mercury dealer). The third was their competitor. I definately don't mind paying the dealer for diag. time if they actually spent the time to diagnose my problem even if they couldn't duplicate it. I didn't feel that 1/2 hour labor to open up my door and verify that my bracket was infact bent as I told them nor do I feel that the 1/2 hour labor to sit in my seat and change my 4x4 switch from Auto to Low and then back to Auto were worth an hour of labor (or even 1/2 hour of labor). Now if they would have went on a test drive and tried engaging Low a couple of times in the dirt field next to the dealership, then a diag. fee would be justified. It was rediculous that they even tried to charge me for diag.time for the bent seat tilt bracket.

 

[Msupertek]

FORD CERTIFIED TECHNICIAN

I agree with you on the check out, due to the fact that no one actually diagnosed anything. They should have put more effort into the 4x4 concern and made a complete estimate available to you for the repairs by the time you picked up your vehicle. Like I said apparently that dealer has poor management and leadership skills, and if they were in my area would be replaced very quickly by someone more suitable for the positions.

 

[tenikiwon]

That's why you are THEE SUPER TEK!!

 

[Msupertek]

I brought up the some issues in my statement to help those of you who are frustrated because you feel that the dealership is not adequite in diagnosing your vehicle. If you have a problem you should always feel comfortable asking for the technicians certifications and if the tech cannot duplicate your concern, but you know that you can recreate it then you should do so to save both of you time. That way you get your car back sooner and it is fixed the first time. This really should not be the customers job, it should be the service advisors job to contact you for additional information to diagnose the vehicle and if necessary ask you to road test the vehicle with the technician. One of largest problems I see with cars leaving that have not been repaired properly is that there is a lack of communication between the customer and the service advisor. The story on the Repair Order should basically be a road map to tell the tech how to duplicate your concern. Repeat repairs can be reduced and prevented if you work with your local dealer instead of against them by blaming and name calling. In other words if you don't provide accurate information, the turn out will probably not be good, especially in a situation where the problem is intermittent. I would almost guarentee that if you would have driven your vehicle with the technician and showed him the noise you heard it would have been fixed on the first repair. I know me personally, I drive customers cars like a grandma while on the road unless told otherwise. Just for the fact if I took my car to a dealer and seen some tech driving like a bat out of hell I would be pissed off! Well got to go, just thought I would leave everyone with this so maybe relations between techs and customers would be better if each understand what the other expected of them.

 

[lonestar]

Msupertek, maybe you could give me a little help on problem

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thanks

 

[Msupertek]

What do ya need?