Breather valve went while offroading 2000 5.0L V8 AWD

[rigbyrigz]

"I'd run from your shop."

Yeah, thanks Koda2000... planning to "drive" from that shop (if they ever call; we got the NorthEast snow polar events goin on...)

I see you list a 5.0L AWD MM 2000; so you know what a pleasure it (can) be. I saw a few rear possibilities on eBay, certainly $500 or less; its def one of the plan B's...

...what did you think of the "spider gear replacement" kit idea (see above) - that one is growin on me, though of course, starting with a (possibly) torn-away breather valve there might be other things wrong with the rear diff.

Thanks!

 

[koda2000]

As I can not see the actual condition of your gears, I think I'd start by changing the diff oil (at least once) adding the friction modifier and see what happens.

 

[rigbyrigz]

So, hello. just picked up my Mounty brought it home. They drained it, said a bunch of water first came out before the chocolate milk makes them think that this was done maybe 2-3 weeks ago, vent/ breather valve came loose and water got in, badboy neighbor never mentioned it until the recent (offroad/ditch) episode but seems feasible. Net result is a lot of wear and tear seen plus the banged up spider gears maybe grinding or slipping some, even with the new diff oil. (they declined to do additive or friction modifier saying "not needed, not in the spec".)

So it IS drivable, we still got a mild but quiet shudder on some turning. No binding sensation. But Bearings (worn?) may be an issue he says. Thinks it will eventually get worse, maybe noisy or noisier first, still suggests replacing the rear diff but was "checking out" spider gear replacements for me already, as another possibility. Suggests give it 100 miles, see if there's water or issues with the fluids, noting that might be done without fully draining it and refilling it again. Says you might take it 100 miles on the highway and be fine, or it might act up no way to know whats very likely.

Bill was $270. removed and gave me the rear tag: S621E 3L73 88 9L12 also said this is not a "limited slip" vehicle and there are not clutches. Pointed out the tag and other specs for that conclusion. Still, there may have been a binding sensation thats less pronounced or even gone now due to cleaned fluids.

There was a misunderstanding. His "found you a $1079 used rear" was supposed to be price for the whole shop repair: used-rear: $450, replace axle housing $440, gasket $14 Fluid $105 Tax $70 Total $1079. That does make a bit more sense. At this juncture I spent $270 not $1079 and have all the good ideas and advice and guidance and information from this forum, so I am apparently better off. Although some driving experience, crossed fingers, testing/checking/monitoring and other drama or adventure may await me.

I will keep this thread updated as I follow the suggestions made, and again great thanks and appreciation to all.

 

[kevinspann]

I would change the fluid again soon, and add friction modifier, as it should have a limited slip rear differential with clutches that require it.

If you can't get a straight story from the person who borrowed you car, consider changing all of the fluids, as you won't know where else water got in.

 

[koda2000]

I would change the fluid again soon, and add friction modifier, as it should have a limited slip rear differential with clutches that require it.

If you can't get a straight story from the person who borrowed you car, consider changing all of the fluids, as you won't know where else water got in.

check the axel code on the driver's door jam. for example, if it says D4 it's a 3:73 ratio limited slip. If the shop actually looked at your diff, they should have been able to tell the difference between an open and a LSD. if you don't have an LSD, the friction modifier is not needed. someone on the forum recently posted a list of all the door/axel codes and what they mean.

 

[rigbyrigz]

I hope you guys don't abandon me, thanks again. I also hope the garage owner (who "appears" to be a nice guy) doesn't read this forum. I mentioned some rear-diffs on eBay and some stuff I read, and got a "internet is a bunch of lies" comment, when I picked up my Mounty yesterday. Hmmn.

As I paid my $270 I asked some questions; he actually got the 2 mechanics to come inside and help answer, like exactly how the breather valve (vent) was found and reattached... torn off or what and how (answer: "can't tell", but he had to do something "to get it back in/on" with the threads.)

The bill just says 3 qts SXN gear oil (34.98 x 3) I mentioned the $20 price at Amazon and asked about the friction modifier (additive) ... I mention the invoice cause some SXN apparently have the friction modifier already "in it". As I reported earlier, I asked if he added it, and was told "doesn't need it, not in the spec" or such...

...he actually came and picked me up at my residence to get the SUV, so we had a little time to chat about the issues. I brought up LS and clutches and clean diff oil and binding and such and he said "your vehicle doesn't have limited slip or clutches"...

...within the context of buying a replacement rear down-the-line he handed me the tag and said the obvious "you want it to match up with these codes". Which are: S621E, and 3L73 88 9L12 on it. He also went out of his way to point out: "do you see "limited slip" or LS anywhere on that?" When I said "no" he said "well, there ya go".

Well, we know 3:73 and 8.8 of course, but I checked S621E Ford/Mercury in this forum and all over the Internet (of lies) within articles of "how to tell if you have a limited slip differential" and such. From several Ford and Mercury rear axle codes and charts, the best I could uncover there is that S621E 2000 MMounty is "L" where "L" = Locking and "NL" = NonLocking.

I was reading through a bunch of stuff on "LSD" (no, not the pill) when koda's post about D4 came in; so I just checked the door. It does indeed say Rear Axle D4.

So, do we all agree I have a LSD and an garage owner that it will be fun to tell: "I believe you are wrong, this is a limited slip diff and you should have added the friction modifier". Of course, he will say "sorry, bring it back, its easy, we will lift it open the add-valve and put it in with our apologies". And then he will say: "and maybe my analysis you need a new DIFF the bearings could be beat up and the spider gears too" was a bit "off".

Yeah, I am being sarcastic. What do I do now; I have the vehicle back with cleaned diff and 3 quarts new fluids, no modifier additive; its not in the garage-owners "clutches" (pun intended), just drive it awhile track and monitor the situation AS IS? THANKS!

UPD: Yes, I AM CONVINCED I have a LS. Besides the D4 I also found this in more than one write-up:
Do all 8.8s come with a limited slip? No, read the tag on the housing or remove the cover. 3L73 = 3.73 gears witha "L"imited slip

 

[rigbyrigz]

BTW, I haven't phoned (or driven to; snow events) garage owner yet to say: Hey, look, I do have an LSD after-all don't I need the additive?

But that may be my next step. Just wondering ( most of you may recall I am not a DIYer) is adding the friction modifier additive at this juncture something trivial; like jacking up one wheel on a neighbor's driveway with some smarts and tools, buying it at AutoZone, opening up an add-valve, and pouring it in like adding engine oil? Have to drain some DIFF oil out first to make room? Sigh.

 

[koda2000]

"I was reading through a bunch of stuff on "LSD" (no, not the pill) when koda's post about D4 came in; so I just checked the door. It does indeed say Rear Axle D4."

This proves your truck came with a LSD with 3:73 gear ratio. As far as I've seen, all the AWD's came with the LSD rear diff. The 2WD's can come without the LSD.

As far as your mechanic, like most mechanic's I've encountered, they're egotistical jerks who can't stand being told they're wrong. If you even suggest they're wrong they immediately get all up-in-your-face.

Even if he put in a synthetic gear oil that already has the friction modifier in it, you will need to put in the Ford LSD additive. As far as putting in 3 quarts, I guess he charged you for the quart he spilled on the ground...

I have no dog in this fight, so I have no reason to lie to you.

 

[rigbyrigz]

Well, sometimes the Garage is open Sunday so I just gave the owner a call; he answered. The conversation got a little hairy (as i told him I do have LSD after-all), but ended up:

A) "Won't do any good (sigh) but bring it by Tuesday, you can buy it first if you want but I will check and see if its in the ingredients of what I used, if it is we're done if not I will add it".

Well, I guess that's a Plan.

 

[rigbyrigz]

Hi Koda, Thanks. I was posting above reply as your latest post was on the way to the "Internet of Lies". LOL.

I'm not as displeased with the 3 quarts (as specs in my OM say 5.5 to 5.8 pints DIFF oil capacity, which really is 2 3/4 quarts or so).

But based upon what you just posted and all-in-all, i am gonna buy 4oz additive and show up Tuesday ask them to add it. From what I have read on this a little bit extra doesn't hurt anything though never seems to really help a lot either. Thanks!

 

[koda2000]

he's right in that it wont hurt anything to add it, but of course he won't admit he's wrong. BTW, others here have changed their diff oil with synthetics that were labeled as having a LSD additive, but have ended up having to later put in the Ford LSD additive. because of clutch chatter on turns.

 

[rigbyrigz]

Yeah my local 2 autostores dont have 4 oz.) of Additive Friction Modifier C8AZ-19B546-A cost $20 or so but i am looking for it so will bring it Tuesday.

Whats on my feeble mind now is this
a) he/they didnt know it was LS, as we now know for sure
b) they added 3 x $34.98 syn quarts of some spec i dont know right now
c) OM says use Motorcraft SAE 80W-90 Premium Rear Axle Lubricant (or equivalent) for "conventional" diff, and Motorcraft SAE 75W-140 HighPerformance Synthetic Rear Axle Lubricant (or equiv) for LS...

d) what if they put 3 quarts of the wrong stuff in. The fact that the invoice says 3qts SXN "probably" means I am ok, but still...

...could this be a major development in my sad state of affairs?

 

[rigbyrigz]

ORDERED: Genuine Ford Fluid XL-3 Friction Modifier Additive - 4 oz.
by Ford $5.99 Amazon Prime Free 2day shipping

 

[1998Exp]

Royal Purple synthetic, which claims to include a friction modifier, and has a pretty good reputation goes for around $21/qt. Whatever he put in there is probably not worth more than $10-$15/qt. But heck, it's a shop, not an auto supplies store, and he already spent a lot of time on your vehicle, and even picked you up. He has to make up for his low hourly rate somehow.

Yeah my local 2 autostores dont have 4 oz.) of Additive Friction Modifier C8AZ-19B546-A cost $20 or so but i am looking for it so will bring it Tuesday.

Whats on my feeble mind now is this
a) he/they didnt know it was LS, as we now know for sure
b) they added 3 x $34.98 syn quarts of some spec i dont know right now
c) OM says use Motorcraft SAE 80W-90 Premium Rear Axle Lubricant (or equivalent) for "conventional" diff, and Motorcraft SAE 75W-140 HighPerformance Synthetic Rear Axle Lubricant (or equiv) for LS...

d) what if they put 3 quarts of the wrong stuff in. The fact that the invoice says 3qts SXN "probably" means I am ok, but still...

...could this be a major development in my sad state of affairs?

 

[rigbyrigz]

Thank you 1998Exp (and all); this place does have some good points, and there ARE worse places. I used to use my other mechanic neighbor until he checked out this Mounty for me when I bought it and failed to notice the AWD vehicle had no front drive shaft until after it was a done deal (we quibbled.)

Despite the badboy neighbor's roughing things up, I was hopeful the guidance to try a fluids change and some additive might show some improvements. And longevity might be improved. And there is a fine line between a noise, a vibration, a shudder, a binding, and "a chatter", at least to me.

But not only did they leave out the supposedly helpful (and Ford spec!) friction modfier additive because they failed to note it was an LSD, they may have even put the wrong spec diff oil in. So where dos that leave me? Don't answer. LOL.

 

[rigbyrigz]

Tryna sleep (can't) wondering: Yeah, "Royal Purple synthetic, which claims to include a friction modifier"... would be nice if that's what the $34.98 a quart "SXN GEAR OIL" the garage filled the DIFF with, is...

...so when I called Sunday asked about that, and that my LSD needs the friction modifier additive, and it sorta came up that some high-performance synthetic rear axle lubricant may have that "already in it" for what its worth, why did I get:

"well, I will have to check what we put in, you can give me a call on Tuesday".

Maybe it was late Sunday and he had coat on heading home to Sunday Roast, but if it was something like "Royal Purple synthetic" I would think they would know, from ordering it, looking up the spec, what have ya.

I would hate to find out they put 3 quarts of 80W90 Premium rather than 75W140 HP in the diff, or something else even. Further wondering what that would beget in terms of our performance test and monitoring...

...even worse, I would hate to NOT find out what they put, because I have no verifiable way of knowing what I am going to be told on Tuesday is indeed what's in there. Am I right, or just paranoid, or both?

(By Tuesday he could look up the name of a synthetic with the additive in it, to tell me "that's what's in the DIFF" - as if I would be able to verify that... no, that's paranoid. No reason to be so suspicious.)

 

[rigbyrigz]

I know how this question sounds, but if ya keepin up with the hugely interesting thread above (yeah right) you will understand why I ask:

Is "chatter" anything like "shudder"?

TY.

 

[koda2000]

I know how this question sounds, but if ya keepin up with the hugely interesting thread above (yeah right) you will understand why I ask:

Is "chatter" anything like "shudder"?

TY.

"chatter" is a term used for clutches that don't engage smoothly. LSD's use clutches to engage both axles together while allowing "limited slip" when you go around a corner. without the friction modifier, the clutches bind and release rather than slipping smoothly against each other. shutter, chatter... call it what you will.

Ford automatic transmissions tend to "shutter" when the ATF is beyond it's service life. replacing the fluid usually fixes this issue. this is a similar phenomenon.

 

[rigbyrigz]

Thanks again Koda2000.
Obvio that that garage guy wants to replace the rear, and maybe it's a simple lucrative repair solution from his perspective. He drives a 2001 Explorer with 200K+ miles as his garage-car (painted with 24 hour phone nbr and ads) and swears lovingly by it, so I always thought he was an aficionado of the genre.

I therefore find myself perplexed or worse that his team didn't seem to know I have an LSD. Not to add the Ford-spec friction modifier additive could just be an honest mistake, although his "it won't matter none" comment makes me wonder. Of course, my own goal is to drive the vehicle with replaced fluids (w/ additive) and see if it indeed fixes or improves the chatter/shudder/shutter issue.

When my wondering gets to the suspicious and alarmed level, I think of his prospective desire to replace the rear, an objective that cold be furthered by putting cheaper wrong-spec rear axle lubricant in the DIFF. At the very least it (non-syn or wrong spec fluids) would keep the chatter situation from being remedied, and it might even further the deterioration to gears bearings clutches I dunno.

Folks here may of course make their own best guess; I assume it's clear that without the right fluid (and additive) I may not notice any improvement. I hope if I don't get a reliable answer Tuesday or Wednesday what was used, in 200 miles or so I might buy my own 3 quarts (and more additive) and try to get a driveway mechanic or relative to "try again" (drain and refill.) From videos of the fill-valve and such, it doesn't look like rocket science for someone with the right smarts and no hidden agenda. Thanks.

 

[koda2000]

I wouldn't bother changing the diff oil again until you drive it a while. Whatever they put in there it's a pretty good bet it was at least hypoid gear oil. It sounds like it was synthetic (as he said it had an additive in it) but even if he just put 80w90 in it it wont make much difference short term. It's gotta be better than the "mud" that was in there...

I suggest you stop obsessing about it. If it ruined, it's ruined. It doesn't matter if it gets more ruined. If the fluid change makes it quiet - you got lucky. Over the weekend I saw a complete, clean V8 rear diff on eBay for $200, so they're out there if worse comes to worse. I would never pay over $1000 for a diff rebuild. That's just hwy robbery. Good luck!