Breather valve went while offroading 2000 5.0L V8 AWD

[rigbyrigz]

Please pardon non-expert misuse of technical terms. Got my 2000 MMounty 5.0L V8 AWD 3 years ago 150K love it despite FDS was missing, but no problems not even parking prawel.

I let the 27year old neighbor borrow it for work when his wife crashed into a deer their car, and just 3 days ago he apparently skipped work went offroading didnt tell me, vehicle was sorta muddy but its nasty winter here, might have been just a short detour wasn't that muddy can't get a straight story, tire went flat that nite, but after cleaning and air was fine.

Been driving(very minimally) 3 days and on turning there was a shudder. Brought it in. Shop found (showed me) breather valve (i think on rear differential) has torn loose. And a bunch of muddy-colored thick liquid is draining out when they put it on lift. So they got it while I am car-less. Say they are gonna drain it check gears refill it i guess check for leaks and damage. May take a few days. (They are busy which is part of delay.)

Best case they say it will be OK with the above strategy. Worse case is replace(rebuild?) rear diff $500 or so maybe doesn't include extended labor? These guys are good and friendly but sorta pricey. I guess worst case is non-repairable.
I suppose $800 or so total repair cost is a GO for me due to circumstances. Paid $2000 3 years ago invested $1500 or so more, love it.

PLEASE be so kind as to comment if this approach by me makes sense, what total cost of repair/replace rear diff if they report its darn badly mucked up is reasonable, I am thinking better be under $1000 or I'm crazy to plunk more cash down, already FDS was missing and 175K miles now.

ALSO what else to be aware of, in this mess. (Neighbor has 1 year old kid and totally broke, no help there. Teach me be a nice guy.) TY.

 

[Demo1986]

You can easily remove the diff cover and drain all the fluid. Jack each tire up individually a couple degrees to drain the axle tubes. Do a visual inspection on the gears and if it looks good close it all up and fill it with some cheap diff oil. After a couple hundred miles change the diff oil again to make sure it's clean. That's what I would do.

 

[koda2000]

Tips for young people (and stupid older, more experienced, people who should know better) from lessons I have learned.

NEVER LEND ANYONE YOUR CAR.
NEVER LEND ANYONE YOUR TOOLS.
NEVER LEND ANYONE MONEY if you expect to get it back.
NEVER GET ANYONE A PHONE ON YOUR ACCOUNT.

No good will come of it. You'll lose friends and remember, "no good deed goes unpunished".

 

[rigbyrigz]

Thank you Demo (and anyone else). I am not a DIY'er so am a bit at a disadvantage, so Demo's suggestion would be an issue for me. Thx. UPD: I just got a call from garage. Owner says "gears look pretty beaten up" he says he found a "used rear" which i think means rear diff, and its "about $1100. You need it and it may be the end of your "noise" no guarantees."

I got the impression there might be a few odds and ends in the cost, as is always the case there (although work is top-notch) so I am thinking $1200-or such, yukkk.

I honestly said anything over a 1000 seems bad money (or words to that effect) and asked him what he thinks. No clear guidance replied. I asked what happens if we just clean and fill it and drive it. Says might last some, with the noise probably (which is just an intermittent mild shudder on some turns) might have the noise still. i doubt it will be good, may seize up, or whatever. I said "will it be safe to drive and see?" He says dont know do i want him to try that and he'll drive it and see what it sounds like and report back.

HELP please. I am having problems thinking half a 175Kmiles 2000 AWD (front drive shaft gone) B+ body is worth a "maybe the worst is over" $1100-$1300 "used rear" fix. (No matter how much i love vehicle). Not sure what to believe or what to do. He's gonna get me for $200-300 labor and oil no matter what, even if i kill it. Thanks in advance!

(YEAH KODA2000 u are SO right!!)

 

[shadowless127]

Is that $1100 quote including labor? If so what is his labor rate?

 

[rigbyrigz]

It seems like he's quoting me $1079 just for a "used rear"... diff oil and labor are probably gonna be extra. My mechanic nephew in another state says this is crazy; couple hundred for a used diff would seem more realistic.

Right now the plan is to distance myself from this garage's "un-guaranteed" solution - not put that kinda money into it. Hope they seal it up (breather valve, looses ends i dunno) fill it with diff oil, charge me a few hundred and say yeah its drivable FOR NOW good luck, and i will take it back and drive short distances locally and see how it feels or how it goes, while looking for possible alternate vehicles. (or nephews who will visit

At least thats my latest thoughts, THANKS.

(oh sorry don't know his labor rate offhand. Owner is always saying, on phone, to other customers, or to me: We'll do it as cheaply as we can or such. Written estimates there are not issued without pain, and most elect to hope for the best. I know, i know, but there are Worse garages around.)

 

[rigbyrigz]

From talking to my nephew and his dad and reviewing the week, yeah the garage says the spider gears are messed up. But we all are thinking its strange that there was something that seems more like diff oil fluid (dark gray almost milky) leaking out when they called me inside, under the lift, to show me the loose breather valve and the "gunk"...

...why have there been no puddles or leaks noted in the 3 days prior. I drove locally for 3 days. Why is the shudder intermittent on some turns and rather minor, feels like ebrake is ON (its not) or such. Maybe some rocks or sludge just hanging out from the neighbors games? Not making much sense. So I am told (thus far) by "others" not the garage. Of course the garage is on the battlefront,saying otherwise, but also out to make a buck. So hard to figure out, sigh.

 

[shadowless127]

It seems like he's quoting me $1079 just for a "used rear"... diff oil and labor are probably gonna be extra. My mechanic nephew in another state says this is crazy; couple hundred for a used diff would seem more realistic.

Right now the plan is to distance myself from this garage's "un-guaranteed" solution - not put that kinda money into it. Hope they seal it up (breather valve, looses ends i dunno) fill it with diff oil, charge me a few hundred and say yeah its drivable FOR NOW good luck, and i will take it back and drive short distances locally and see how it feels or how it goes, while looking for possible alternate vehicles. (or nephews who will visit

At least thats my latest thoughts, THANKS.

(oh sorry don't know his labor rate offhand. Owner is always saying, on phone, to other customers, or to me: We'll do it as cheaply as we can or such. Written estimates there are not issued without pain, and most elect to hope for the best. I know, i know, but there are Worse garages around.)

$1079 for a used rear?!?!?! That's absurd. I wouldn't do business with them. I found diffs in other states for <$400. There's a diff in Dallas TX, if the JY is willing to ship it to you, with freight I'd be surprised if it was more then $550 all in.

AllData is showing book labor at 5.3hrs to replace the rear, for reference purposes.

 

[rigbyrigz]

Thank you Shadowless for reply and info. I am convinced of what you say, and trying to get my vehicle returned to me with minimal repair costs at this point, and decline the $1079 replacement.

I am now not even fully convinced there is enough spider gear damage to warrant replacement (I only have telephoned report to me and their word now seems less than fully trustworthy. I did see loosed breather valve when was on lift so yeah something did go awry from neighbor, but exactly what not sure now.)

If I get it back (hopefully soon hopefully no more than a few hundred for diff oil and work done) I will drive it gently and locally only to gauge the matter. At that point a used rear diff from parts yard or other source with nephew or other mechanic to do it is definitely (or should i say DIFFinately) a possibility if the damage is pronounced or conditions (slight intermittent shudder) repeat or worsen. THANKS!

 

[rigbyrigz]

It does look like an exact match model/yr 2000 MM AWD 5.0L V8 rear diff is a bit hard to find and a bit pricey. Just from various google and eBay searches. Not $1079 though.

It's also a bit confusing to a non-expert to research: rear-axle-complete-assembly, rear differential, carrier, pumpkin... parts come with and without certain components, also kits and installer parts, so a lot of variety of offers and technical terms used.

It was also interesting to see things in the FORD OM, such as:

"Vehicles equipped with 4.0L SOHC V6 engine and 3.73:1 or 4.10:1 rear
axle ratios or with a 5.0L V8 engine require synthetic rear axle lubricant.
Rear axles containing synthetic lubricant are lubricated for life. These
lubricants are not to be checked or changed unless a leak is suspected or
service is required. The axle lubricant should be changed any time the
axle has been submerged in water."

I am assuming the so-called pricey diff-oil is this above-mentioned synthetic rear axle lubricant. And the rear-axle-assembly and rear-differential are likewise the same component. The last sentence, since i suspect the torn breather valve seen and mudpuddle offroading suspected is close enough to having "been submerged in water" would seem to indicate at least flushing/draining and replacing the oil and/or lubricant... and with things like "friction modifier additive" and other complexities make it not a quick easy or cheap job. I am getting ready for the pricey garage to ask for $400-500 just for doing that and not actually rebuilding or replacing anything.

I would think the reason for a diff/rear axle/carrier "replacement" would be the (spider?) gears looking worn or damaged from grit or other mishap involved. I guess that's in the eye of the garage guys. But also the drivability and limited not worsening intermittent "turning shudder" (and no telltale leaking in 3 days driving) might mean they are not that bad (that is my hope) and therefore can avoid that task (for now at least) and monitor it carefully and delicately and gently.

If I sound like a non-expert with muddled mind its because I am. Setting me straight, correcting my misassumptions and inaccuracies is quite welcome and appreciated, thanks!

 

[Demo1986]

I still think you should just change the oil twice. You can either youtube "how to change diff oil" or jump on Craigslist and post an ad for a handy mechanic to do the oil change for like $100 in your driveway.

 

[rigbyrigz]

Thank you, Good Plan. Of course I will be getting it back from garage guys with new fluids, presumably "expensive synthetic $30-40 a quart" stuff the garage-owner muttered about. Specs for the 5.0L AWD V8 2000 Mounty actually say:

Motorcraft SAE 75W-140 High Performance Synthetic Rear Axle Lubricant, 5.5 to 5.8 pints, which is about 3 quarts. $20-23 a quart on Amazon, cheaper brands of course available.

(I am assuming "diff oil" = "rear axle lubricant", seems so.)

Then drive 200 miles gently, if it allows me (no smoke, fumes, bad stutter, or mishap.) At that point if things are going really well (no such luck) I suppose I could just let things be. But the suggested course is then to drain the lubricant/diff oil, and check viscosity and dirtiness. Also give the spider gears a once over. If dirty, chunky, mucky, messed, whatever... get a used rear from eBay or a Parts Yard under $500 get nephew or someone to install. If news is not that bad, reFill with 3 more quarts of synthetic and thank my lucky stars... and y'all.

 

[Flash]

The shudder on turns is likely to be the limited slip clutches binding because of the crap oil.
If the spider gears are a bit damaged, a change of oil will see them right for quite a few more miles, maybe with a bit of noise.

A diff with a bit of noise can go on for a very long time, unless the case hardening has come off the bearings but you'll get plenty of noisy warning before a failure if that's the case.

 

[rigbyrigz]

Thank you Flash, that's helpful input. 3 people describing the impairment that went on for 2-3 days before I brought it in described it as both a "shudder" and a "binding" feeling. Exact words. (I actually said it feels like the eBrake is on at times - it wasn't). There was no distinct sharp noise but almost a low rumble on some turning, audible only to someone inside the car; perhaps more a vibration feeling than a sound.

It's been at the garage 2 days now; I declined the $1079 used rear (the owner seemed a bit put off) and asked for the fluids change and to seal it up can see what we got. Still waiting on a callback; what the fees will be and the owner's "assessment" of "safe driveability" has me anxious mainly because he agreed to it in a reluctant mocking tone.

I will follow your helpful guidance and that of others here, and ponder the possibilities while hoping to reacquire it today, or maybe Monday. I am not familiar with "limited slip clutches" but the prognosis sounds on target as the oil surely seemed mucked up due to the breather valve coming off during the neighbors offroad escapade.

I'll post progress updates here together with continued appreciation and thanks!

 

[rigbyrigz]

Tryna learn about "limited slip clutches" so did some reading. I suppose I have it (updated my vehicle specs; not sure can tell from that) but perhaps its MM AWD std.

Of the stuff I read, this seemed most interesting ( and promising, to my situation.) -

"Factory limited slip differentials aren't exactly famous for lasting a long time. The good news is that even if it is shot, it's still perfectly driveable, and you won't hurt anything. As the limited slip differentials wear out, they just become regular differentials. At that point you can either replace the clutches, replace the differential, or not do anything and live with it!"

 

[SoNic67]

"The good news is that even if it is shot, it's still perfectly driveable, and you won't hurt anything. As the limited slip differentials wear out, they just become regular differentials. At that point you can either replace the clutches, replace the differential, or not do anything and live with it!"

That's correct. For the "lasting" part - I guess is all about what you do with your truck.

Tips for young people (and stupid older, more experienced, people who should know better) from lessons I have learned.
NEVER LEND ANYONE YOUR CAR.
NEVER LEND ANYONE YOUR TOOLS.
NEVER LEND ANYONE MONEY if you expect to get it back.
NEVER GET ANYONE A PHONE ON YOUR ACCOUNT.

Hey, I did all of the above! And sadly, ended up with the same conclusions.
Car got dents, or even... transmission blew.
Tools broke or disappeared.
Money - took me huge amount of time and effort to track them back. Now I lend only what I can "write off" eventually.
As for the phone - ended up paying for it. But she was kind of cute, so it wasn't a complete loss

 

[rigbyrigz]

Thank you Sonic67!

On TIPS by Koda2000:

Only did 3 of the 4 so far (no phone accounts) - Glad I read the Koda Tips before I completed the Grand Slam!

 

[boominXplorer]

Unless you have actually BROKEN spider gears my bet is the truck will be just fine. It is very common to blow the spiders once they are wheeled hard with bad clutches, I have done it 2x on 35s before upgrading. Just have them refill the diff and get it out of that shop. Make sure they use the right fluid + friction modifier. You can walk in any auto store and pick up the oil for about $20 a qt. (you need 3) and friction modifier under $10.

Yukon gear sells a top and bottom spider gear replacement set for under $200. After a couple you tube videos a beginner mechanic can handle this job. If you can find a neighborhood kid that is a car enthusiast and pay him $50 to help with the job. Your rear end will be just "like new" for MUCH cheaper. If you feel comfortable you can rebuild the limited slip also but it will not be needed to get you back on the road(but is recommended).

 

[rigbyrigz]

Thank you BoominX... wish I had listened more precisely when garage called and said something like bad news, spider gears are...x... I don't recall if they said "in bad shape", broken, "messed up" or what. I don't think they said "broken" although I do recall replying "that doesn't sound good". I wonder if the 3 days of driving with mild to slight shudder/binding but no real noise or drama might suggest they probably weren't broken, (or badly broken?). I guess there are various degrees of breakage and various degrees of symptoms, and of course symptoms can worsen if damaged gears continue to deteriorate?

My plan, upon hoped for recovery of an operable vehicle with new (correct) fluids, was to drive it locally and gently. Roadside assistance plan allows for a free tow 20 miles (back to my residence) if it breaks down on the road...

...My nephew lives 90 minutes away; used to race cars at ATCO rebuild engines so could probably check it all out do the replace or rebuild. Of course everything's "no problem" with him, until he needs to find the time, tools, and patience, and its just a "hobby". My real concern getting it to him for a look-see (maybe more) was if it breaks down far from home, then what...

...I will report the driving symptoms and developments here upon my recovery of vehicle and local driving; maybe that will facilitate the great folks here giving opinion on whether or not its highly likely I can drive it 90 minutes without mishap.

It does irk me that this garage didn't/couldn't come up with the "spider gear replacement" suggestion, knowing my economic concerns and the vehicle's age and history; (rather than install a $1079 used rear) - but it is what it is. Thanks!

UPDATE: Checked my own notes IN THIS THREAD posted right after Garage called. I wrote he said "spider gears look pretty beaten up". Sorta vague not too helpful I guess but at least DIFF than "broken" (pun intended.) Wanted to make the above more accurate.

 

[koda2000]

in my part of the country you can purchase a complete, used rear end for a 5.0L Explorer/Mountaineer for around $200-$250 on eBay. 2wd and AWD are the same, only difference on a 4.0L rear end is the bracket for the 5th shock. You just need to get the same gear ratio (probably 3:73 on an AWD). I'd run from your shop.