Charging issue need help ASAP

[Kevlar7R]

Be careful with that sparking. When a battery is charging, it gives off hydrogen gas. If you just charged that battery and it has hydrogen sitting in it, the sparks could set it off. I've had a battery blow up in my face before (someone else's fault, I was just there) and it is not a pleasant experience. As loud as a shotgun, and sprays you and the truck with acid.

 

[budwich]

as I suggested you need to test the wiring. Don't run the vehicle, disconnect the wiring at alternator, get a meter and measure for voltage at the those disconnected wires... that will check your wiring. IF there is NOT voltage on both the A and B+, you have a wiring problem and it won't matter how good your alternator is, it won't do anything but spin with your engine. Further since you last "played" LOM, pull the connector on it for now to take it out of the system and see if that helps.

 

[koda2000]

i don't recall you saying that you had your battery load tested. have you? 12.6v would indicate a fully charged battery, but volts don't mean much. it's the amps that are important. with a functioning alternator, you should see 14+ volts measured at the battery with the engine running.

you said you used a trickle charger, all day, to charge your battery. how many amps? 2amp? that's not enough to charge a really discharged battery. it would take a 2 amp charger days (if ever) to recharge a flat 650 amp battery. trickle chargers are meant to maintain a battery, not recharge it from dead. i would suggest at least 15 amp to recharge and then leave it on there for 5-8 hours minimum. smart chargers do a better job because they can vary the amps being delivered to the need. the quickest chargers are those found for use at the auto parts stores and they will take 45 min to an hour to charge a dead battery and it will get pretty warm in the process (probably not the best thing for the battery).

is you BATT light lit? it should be if you alternators not charging. in some GM vehicles, the battery wont charge if the BATT light is burnt out because the alt requires something around 35 ohms resistance to work. don't know it Fords are similar.

 

[koda2000]

Be careful with that sparking. When a battery is charging, it gives off hydrogen gas. If you just charged that battery and it has hydrogen sitting in it, the sparks could set it off. I've had a battery blow up in my face before (someone else's fault, I was just there) and it is not a pleasant experience. As loud as a shotgun, and sprays you and the truck with acid.

i was assuming the OP knew this, but yes... big +1 on that subject. i've seen it happen too. not pretty.

 

[my white eddie]

Whelp, played some last night. NO PROGRESS! Searching for a charging schematic next. After some limited testing again, I agreed that it was not
charging at all. I tested for voltage at the signal wire and it was at 11.96V,
so back to the "zone", this time they said the alt was bad(day before it was good???) go across town for a swap out, put new one in........SAME DARN
THING!!ARGGG! So at this point I will try to find a diagram and do some tracking down. To answer some questions: LOM has been in and out several
times, does not affect the draw or the lack of charging. Batteries have both been charged and load tested at the "zone". My trickle charger is on its 6 amp
setting, and has always seemed to fully charge in about 6 hrs at that setting.(use it for my Capri with high torque starter every spring)
So basically I am no farther than I was yesterday. At this point if any body
has a diagram or knows a link it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[budwich]

what about on the A lead???

 

[my white eddie]

guess Im confused on the A lead. I thought that was the signal or exciter
wire,(in the 2 wire plug to alt.) it showed 11.96V with key on. B+ is the heavy
charge wire to battery, correct? It showed no ouput(lower than voltage
at battery)Am I not checking the right wire(s)? Because its very possible.
I am just fried and probably way over thinking things at this point.

 

[budwich]

I think I gave you two wires to check.... check both..... in fact, check them all (there isn't that many).... what are the voltage readings and corresponding color codes for each wire... once you have that, it is very likely you (and the rest of us) will understand where your problem lies.

Further, I don't think you need to touch anything with your keys (iirc)... so don't. To answer another question, the main alternator connection DOES NOT go to your battery, it goes to your starter.... that's where all the "juice" is needed at key times and thus the heavy cabling there.

 

[bobflood]

At this point if any body
has a diagram or knows a link it would be greatly appreciated.

Great source for wiring diagrams:
Auto - Online Repair Info
http://search.ebscohost.com/
Login ID: rrcc
Login PW: rebsco
Select: Auto Repair Reference Center
Fill in: Find Your Vehicle
Follow prompts down to Wiring Diagrams.

Good luck.

 

[Kevlar7R]

To answer another question, the main alternator connection DOES NOT go to your battery, it goes to your starter.... that's where all the "juice" is needed at key times and thus the heavy cabling there.

Are you sure about that? I could be rembering wrong, but I remember only one positive cable at the starter, and 2 at the battery, not the other way around. Besides, the starter draws from the battery, not the alternator. The alternator is not making any appreciable amount of current during cranking.

 

[budwich]

I didn't really say that the alternator provides current to the starter to start the vehicle. I "said" the starter was where all the "juice" is needed... for starting, the juices comes on heavy cables to the starter..... that's where the wiring from the alternator "picks up" the heavy wiring to "feed the battery"..... hence that wiring needs to be checked and hence the reason for the measurements of voltage on the various wires without involving anything else including the keys, running of the engine, turning of the alternator, etc.... straight forward measurements to basically to check the integrity of a "few connections".

 

[OptimaJim]

my white eddie, I see a lot of electrical terminology being used incorrectly in this thread, which may hamper some of your efforts. Most auto/light truck batteries have a capacity of 50-70 Ah (some people refer to this as amp-hours). This number indicates how much energy can be stored in your battery and indicates something completely different than the CCA rating. Think of Ah as the size of the electrical “fuel tank”.

The CCA rating of the battery for your vehicle is probably in the 600-800 range. This number indicates a battery's ability to delivery a large amount of current in a short time. Think of this as the gallons/minute your fuel pump can flow.

The time it takes to charge your battery and the time your battery can provide power is most strongly related to the energy storage capacity (Ah) of the battery, not the CCA rating.

I would encourage you to watch this video, which explains how to measure parasitic draw and then re-measure your draw. If you really had an 8.2-amp draw, your battery would not be starting your vehicle. Doing some simple math, an 8.2-amp draw would be discharging your battery at a rate of 196.8 amps (8.2 x 24 hours) per day. If you have a 50 Ah battery (no one is using a 650 Ah battery), an 8.2-amp draw would probably drain it flat in about six hours.

I'm obviously a battery guy and not an alternator guy, but I think the advice relating to a review of your wiring is sound. Since I didn't see anyone else suggest this, I can also share that one of my friends who works for an alternator manufacturer has told me many of the "bad" alternators returned to them are the result of slipping belts.

The number one reason they see for premature alternator failure, including no output, is a slipping v-belt. The following is quoted directly from their tech bulletin:

In the good old days when all we neede was a 40-60 amp alternator, slipping belts were not a common problem. Now that we need 100 amps and up, it has become a real issue. The higher the amperage, the more resistance an alternator has and it takes more power to turn the pulley. Therefore, the belt has to be tighter to prevent slippage.

Signs of belt slippage- Little or no output, discharged battery, pulley extremely hot and starting to discolor, rust on the alternator shaft, belt dust collecting on the fan and front of alternator housing, belt sticking to pulley, glazed or cracked belt, belt riding too deep in the pulley groove, bearing noise. Note: Most of the time, the alternator belt doesn't make a squealing noise when slipping.

You think your belt is tight enough, but is it? Here's a simple and fool-proof way to check- Place a socket and pull handle on the alternator pulley nut and turn clockwise. Does the pulley slip? If so, the belt isn't tight enough and will slip while the engine is running. When checking belt tension this way, it should try to turn the engine and will not slip at all.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries

 

[koda2000]

OPTIMAJIM, judging from your handle, you know a lot about batteries, however this vehicle has a serpentine belt, not a v-belt. serpentine belts tend not to slip very easily (unless wet or contaminated with some fluid) even when worn. there is no adjustment to a serpentine belt as it relies on the spring loaded belt tensioner to keep it tight. the OP's problem is not due to belt slippage. it's probably wiring, or maybe the PCM (if it has anything to do with the charing system, as yet undetermined).

battery ratings are cranking amps CC, cold cranking amps CCA and reserve capacity in minutes. as i recall, amp hours AH, are the battery's ability to deliver 1 amp measured in hours. i've re-read this thread and no one said anything regarding amp hours or CCA. the concern was whether or not the OP was fully charging his battery, as he was only getting 10 minutes out of it and was using a trickle charger to recharge it.

i still can't imagine where this parasitic draw is coming from. that's the real question. i stand by my previous statement regarding amps being more important than volts when testing a battery. a 9 volt smoke detector battery is nearly 12 volts, but it won't start your car (it might be enough put a power window down). at this point, if we assume the alternator's good and the battery is good, the OP has to verify his wiring continuity. i will visit your suggested sight because it's very likely i'll learn something i didn't know... not a day goes by you can't learn something new...

 

[my white eddie]

Did Put a juiced up battery in and measure voltage at all 3 wires last night,
with engine running:
the yellow w/whie stripe showed 11.96v
the green w/ red stripe showed 2.80v to 4.30v and constantly fluctuated.
the heavy charge lug showed 12.00v at start up but steadily dropped
as the battery got sucked dead. So in short, the alt is not charging,
however, I do not know what the two wires are supposed to show
for acceptable voltage. I did trace as much wiring as I could (Its was dark)
and can't find anything broken, pinched or loose. This has me beyond
frustrated at this point. Am I just getting bad alternators, or is something
in my ride shorting them out? Any body got some dynamite?

 

[budwich]

OK... BUT DO NOT RUN YOUR TRUCK... just measure the voltage on the wires... running your truck just muddies the water, DO NOT turn on your key... just measure the wires.
Further you do your measurement on the wires TOTALLY disconnected from your alternator... you are not touching your alternator or measuring anything there.

 

[my white eddie]

I did test the plug disonnected from the alt. (probed the female end)
should I have any voltage to those wires with te truck off ? I can
probably sneak out for a couple minutes to check non running voltage
at that plug. Will post my results soonish.

 

[my white eddie]

O.K., latest results:
Yellow w/ white stripe: 12.11V
Green w/ red stripe: 0.00V
Charge cable: 12.42V
(Battery showed 12.58V)
all tested disconnected from alt., not running, no key on.

 

[budwich]

ok thanks very much for the clarification and further testing..... and thanks for the "extra" measurement of the battery voltage. This is my interpretation of your results based on the schematics from "bob's site"... anyways, green w/red strip 0v... is OK... its will ultimately be a ground that alternator throws on that wire to turn on your battery light and with key off, there is no voltage on the other end.... it doesn't matter to your charge state anyways.

The "B+" cable which you refer to as your "charge cable" is close to your battery voltage... which good... this appears to indicate that your "charge wiring" running from your alternator THRU fuselink to your starter to your battery is probably good.

The "A" cable (yellow with white strip) also goes thru a "similar" path with the exception that its DOESN'T go thru fuse links, it passes thru a fuse in the main power distribution block. Your reading is "suspicious" but could be alright as the wiring gage is a bit thinner.

I assume you used the same ground for all testing.

Next, I would go to the power distribution block and read the voltage going in and out of the fuse to see that you are getting a voltage... hopefully closer to the battery voltage. Further, I would attempt to crawl under the vehicle and check the wiring arriving at your starter from the alternator ensure that the connection are good and that the wire braiding at the lugs are not broken or about to break. My guess right now, is that the A wire has a problem... probably not at the fuse (you can also pull the fuse and do a resistance measurement to check continuity on it)... possibly reseating it may change things also.

One more thing... how many wires do you have running to your alternator???

 

[my white eddie]

No, thank you for taking YOUR time to help!
But on to the topic at hand. I checked mini fuse # 6
underhood as suggested( i did replace it at the begining of this mess)
and it is not blown, and showed 12.33V at the fuse. I did crawl
under it last night with a light and traced the wires going to the
starter, other than being slimy, they seemed in tact, tight and not
frayed or broken at the terminals. Starter terminals looked coroded
so I plan on cleaning those up tonight. My alternator has 3 wires
running to it. 2 on the plug and 1 on the lug. I did use the same ground
for the previous tests. Now forgive me if this sound dumb, but if I am getting full power through wire "A" what would indicate a possible problem on that wire? I am wondering if any of these alternators are even working units
at all!

 

[budwich]

OK... just clarify though..... your measurement at the fuse.... you only indicate one voltage reading.... did you measure both sides????? This measurement(s) don't appear to be the same as the previously stated measurement of 12.11.... ????

As for "full power" on the "A", your testing doesn't indicate "POWER", its a voltage reading not a power reading. There are two components of power, voltage AND current.

I do believe the system uses both (voltage and current) to cause charging... hence the 15A fuse.

As for the workings of the alternators, it is possible that both are bad... maybe. Having said that, it is "bad" to run an alternator with no battery connected to it either intentionally (disconnected) or inadvertantly (broken wiring).... so try not to do that.