Cranks, won't start (sometimes)

[bobinyelm]

Thanks, guys.

It WOULD be nice if fuel tanks had drain plugs so siphoning them dry would be unecessary (it could be at the bottom rear of the tank so it wouldn't hit anything), and if Ford had stamped the chassis floor with an access hole to get at the assembly. Probably wouldn't add $5-10 per car, but multiply that times 200,000 cars you're talking serious money, and few people would see the value of paying even $2 more for easy service years after they will have sold/traded their vehicles.

 

[koda2000]

Thanks, guys.

It WOULD be nice if fuel tanks had drain plugs so siphoning them dry would be unecessary (it could be at the bottom rear of the tank so it wouldn't hit anything), and if Ford had stamped the chassis floor with an access hole to get at the assembly. Probably wouldn't add $5-10 per car, but multiply that times 200,000 cars you're talking serious money, and few people would see the value of paying even $2 more for easy service years after they will have sold/traded their vehicles.

Yeah, but what is it Dr. Phil is fond of saying? "If a frog could fly he wouldn't bump his rump when he jumped". Besides, then the dealership couldn't charge $700-$900 to change the fuel pump.

I find that if I take some clear 3/8's plastic tubing, cut the end with a razor at a 60 degree angle, fold it over and snake it down the filler tube I can get it into the bottom of the fuel tank, then I can siphon all but about a gallon or so out. It takes a while, but the only way to do it quicker is to remove the filler hose from the tank and use a larger diameter siphon hose.

 

[bobinyelm]

OK, so a tube will fit down-
Some vehicles won't allow anything to go down there.

I was going to siphon via the fill once the tank was partly lowered, but doing it first is more convenient.

 

[koda2000]

OK, so a tube will fit down-
Some vehicles won't allow anything to go down there.

I was going to siphon via the fill once the tank was partly lowered, but doing it first is more convenient.

Yes, a tube can be snaked into the tank. Cutting the tip and folding the sharp edge over helps it to get past the lip of the tank bung where the filler hose attaches. I stick a long-neck funnel into the filler neck to hold the metal flap open and then insert the plastic tube through the funnel. This method has worked on all my 4-doors.

BTW, This method does not work on a Sport Trac. Believe me, I've tried.

 

[bobinyelm]

The funnel is a good idea-Thanks

 

[koda2000]

The funnel is a good idea-Thanks

Are you planning to change just the pump or the hole assembly? It's much easier to change just the pump. I just drop the rear of the tank, attach 2 tie wraps to the front (through the bolt holes and around the lower part of the bracket, to act as a hinge) then lower the rear with a floor jack with a piece if wood on it. Then I unbolt the assembly from the tank, pull it out and swing it over the leaf spring to work on it, not even disconnecting the fuel line (which can be the hardest part of the job). I buy Bosch 69128 pumps off eBay. The come with everything you'll need except the strainer and a new fuel filter. I use Aixtex FS199 strainers.

 

[bobinyelm]

Actually, I am just replacing the pump motor itself, and coincidentally I ordered exactly the same Bosch 69128 pump, though I got a different strainer sock (which I hope will be compatible-the photos in RockAuto showed there were different "shapes" all hopefully with the same diameter termination).

That's a great idea-just leaving the tank hanging at a diagonal, only having to disconnect the main filler and vent line. I wouldn't have considered there'd be enough room to withdraw and swing the pump assembly outboard enough to change the pump like that.

That makes the whole job less intimidating given I'll be doing it in a driveway on jack stands.

I really appreciate the experienced suggestion!!

 

[koda2000]

Actually, I am just replacing the pump motor itself, and coincidentally I ordered exactly the same Bosch 69128 pump, though I got a different strainer sock (which I hope will be compatible-the photos in RockAuto showed there were different "shapes" all hopefully with the same diameter termination).

That's a great idea-just leaving the tank hanging at a diagonal, only having to disconnect the main filler and vent line. I wouldn't have considered there'd be enough room to withdraw and swing the pump assembly outboard enough to change the pump like that.

That makes the whole job less intimidating given I'll be doing it in a driveway on jack stands.

I really appreciate the experienced suggestion!!

I get the rear of the truck up as high as possible, placing my jack stands under the spring perches. I'd guess I end up lifting the rear diff about 17-18 inches (as my floor jack lifts 17" and I put a piece of 2x4 on top of it. If your jack stands don't lift that high you can put some wood under them to get a bit more lift). Then I push the retainer for the pump wires through the frame (it's white plastic and is located on the frame rail in the arch). This gives me enough room to snake the assembly out of the tank, You will have to unplug the pump/sender electrical connector, the pressure sensor electrical connector and the evap hose from the tank while lowering it. The evap hose is a weird connection. You need to push it on and squeeze the grey plastic ring with your fingers then pull it off. I usually end up breaking the connector ring to get them off, but it's not the end of the world if you do, as it will stay in place w/o a complete ring. You'll see what I mean when you get to it.

Tips:
Wear gloves when dealing with the fill and vet hoses as the rubber will turn your hands black and it's really hard to get the black off your hands. Once you remove the 6 F/P assembly bolts, place the rear of the tank right on the ground to maximize your room to extract the F/P assembly.

On my more rusty truck I had to cut to cut the clamps off the fill and vent hoses as they wouldn't loosen. I did this carefully with my Dremel tool using a small cut off wheel, then replaced them with regular hose clamps. The OE clamps go through sleeves molded into the hoses, but regular hose clamps are just a bit wider and don't fit through the sleeves.

The 69128 Bosch pump comes with enough fuel line to also replace the piece of hose going from the fuel pressure regulator to the top of the assembly. I suggest you replace this hose also. I use the supplied F/I clamps on the fuel pump hose.

You will not need the large rubber O-rings that come with the Bosch pump. You'll reuse the tank mounted gasket. Just make sure it's clean and you can put a little Vaseline on it if you want.

Spray the two 17mm front bolts and the 13mm strap bolt with penetrant ahead of time, as you don't want to break them. As the tank is lowered you'll be able to unhook the strap from the slot in the frame rail to get it out of your way.

The 2 electrical connectors have tabs you need to push in to disconnect them.

The strainer sock has a hole that goes on the bottom of the fuel pump and a metal retaining ring that holds it securely in place. Push the pump hole on with only your fingers so you don't damage the sock. Push the metal retainer on with a small socket until it's fully in place.

 

[bobinyelm]

Thanks-That's a very detailed suggestion, and again much appreciated.

My is/has been a Phoenix vehicle since bought by it's only-owner before me (who's lived here the whole time), so rust will hopefully be minimal (barely any visual tinges of surface rust on any bare metal), so hopefully that will work in my favor. Hopefully the hardware and clamps will be easy to get off and will be re-usable.

Mine has full skid factory plates, so the tank shield may be a bit in the way until removed.

The jack stands I have available probably won't get me that high, but it should hopefully be enough.

I'll be doing it at a friend's place, so when depends on him, but I'll report back when done. Thank-you.

 

[aryork]

After doing it, I agree Koda's steps seem good. I'm interested to hear how just installing the pump goes.

Drove mine into the office today - seems good...

 

[koda2000]

Thanks-That's a very detailed suggestion, and again much appreciated.

My is/has been a Phoenix vehicle since bought by it's only-owner before me (who's lived here the whole time), so rust will hopefully be minimal (barely any visual tinges of surface rust on any bare metal), so hopefully that will work in my favor. Hopefully the hardware and clamps will be easy to get off and will be re-usable.

Mine has full skid factory plates, so the tank shield may be a bit in the way until removed.

The jack stands I have available probably won't get me that high, but it should hopefully be enough.

I'll be doing it at a friend's place, so when depends on him, but I'll report back when done. Thank-you.

I'm sure the skid plate will have to be removed. All my southern vehicles are rust free and I had no trouble removing the 3 bolt w/out even using penetrant, so I doubt you'll have any trouble. PM me if you have any questions.

 

[bobinyelm]

Yes, from the picture, the skid plate is connected to the tank band (the one secured by the 13mm headed bolt), plus is bolted to the bracket below the flange where the two forward tank bolts (17mm heads) fasten to.

Before I do the job, I'll hose off the top of the tank early from the side to hopefully get any sand/dust off so it won't drop into the tank later.

Looks like a piece of cake.

Thanks for the offer of the PM, and if I run into trouble I'll definitely take you up on it!

Bob

 

[Daniel77]

crank wont start

yes That is the crank sensor . check the wires , check the alignment . My wires were loose . Check the ignition modul . this also went bad on me . When did you replace the fuel filter.

 

[bobinyelm]

Pump Replaced

FINALLY, I got to the job yesterday, and got the pump (only) replaced.

I followed Koda's recommendations, and got the left side as high as I could (Higher would have been nice, but...) and pulled the left wheel after loosening it while still on the ground.

I had run my fuel down so the needle was resting on the EMPTY mark, so I didn't need to siphon/drain my tank.

I pulled the fuel pump relay and ran the engine until the engine died.

Removed the skid plate (4 13mm head bolts)

Loosened the front two 17mm head tank bolts, and placed a floor jack w/ 2X4 under the tank center and removed the belly band.

Removed the front tank bolts and used 4 tie wraps to secure it to the skid plate mount (to act as the "hinge" for the tank as suggested).

Lowered the rear of the tank just enough to loosen the fill and vent hose clamps, and pulled the hoses and hooked them out of the way.

Lowered the tank rear some more, unplugged the electrical connector on the tank, and after cleaning around the pump assembly (It's closer the the rear than I imagined) and tried to remove it. The semi-rigid black plastic hose was in the way, and started kinking. I couldn't disconnect it from the green fitting on the tank, and ended up breaking the brittle gray plastic retainer (Uggh!). Surprisingly, the assembly wasn't even well sealed where the hose plugged onto the fitting. It was a very loose fit, so was not "air-tight" at all.

I then removed that hose completely (cut down the side of it where it is shrunk over the metal tubing on the frame and remove it-you'll never just "pull it off').

Then the pump assembly easily came out and I laid it on the spring as suggested. The pump is retained by a clamp, so after undoing it, I removed the factory hose clamp at the regulator above, and the electrical connector (depress a very small black tab and pull), and selected/installed the proper rubber end cap from the two selected from the Bosch replacement pump, and cut a piece of the new fuel hose to match the old one and installed it on the pump using one of the new supplied clamps on the pump, and re-used the worm drive clamp at the top. The pump comes with an electrical adapter harness, and I installed this between the new pump and the old harness.

I was careful to mount the pump oriented so the new filter sock (snaps on) didn't obstruct the float travel, BTW.

I jumped the two inner FP relay contacts so the pump was powered to make sure the pump was fully operational for obvious reasons. It initially drew 10a then immediately dropped to 5a (same as the old pump). I ran it maybe 5 seconds.

The tank gasket stuck to the tank, and it has to be fastened to the pump top, so I reinstalled it, then re-installed the pump assembly, securing it with the original bolts.

I then used about 16" of 3/8" low pressure gas line (7/16" would have been better) and a couple of clamps to replace the semi-rigid line I had damaged.

As they say, replacement is the reverse of removal, making sure all of the bolts were torqued properly.

With the vehicle on the ground, I again ran the pump for about 15 seconds using the jumper to purge out any air, and cranked it. It started immediately and ran smoothly, so I drove the 1/2 mile to the filling station and filled the tank. I don't know how many gallons remained in the tank, but it couldn't have been much, because I could easily lift the aft end by hand (the front was hinged on the tie wraps), but the tank (marked 24 gal, but in the owner's manual I think says 21 gal) took 19 gal to fill it to the neck.

The job took longer than it seemed like it should have, and it was nice to have a helper to hand me tools and such once I was under the vehicle (space was very tight), or moving the relatively heavy skid plate out of the way, and back into position. I'd allow a total of 3 hours "just in case," like my parts store run for the fuel line, and, of course, lunch. Add an hour if you have a helper just because chatting/visiting takes time, and makes the job more pleasant.

Thanks again to Koda2000 for his suggestion of leaving the tank in the vehicle.

BTW, I had the proper Lisle tool to remove the fuel line from the external fuel line, but even pushed in to where I'm sure the clips were released, we could not get the hose off. I even depressed the Schrader fuel rail valve (Yes, fuel WILL come out, so don't do it on a hot engine) thinking maybe fuel pressure was to blame, but no dice!

I was going to replace my fuel filter, but it was late, and after the failure to get the hose off the tank, I just didn't want to mess with it. Another day, perhaps.

 

[koda2000]

Congrats. Of the 6 pumps I've replaced I've only gotten the plastic hose to the evap canister to come off easily once. The other 5 times I ended up breaking the grey plastic locking piece, but mine fit tight enough that I wasn't worried about it.

Regarding disconnecting the fuel line from the f/p assembly, I disconnected it the first time I replaced a f/p, but it took me forever. First I tried the stupid plastic tools, then I bought a decent set of metal tools and used the 3/8's size which finally worked. If everything wasn't moving around it would be much easier to do. For the next 5 pumps I've done I don't bother with it. It's just not necessary if you're only replacing the pump.

I hope this has solved your problem.

 

[bobinyelm]

Glad I am not alone with my aggravation w/ the evap and hoses.

I have a set of proper metal "scissors" fuel line tools I've had for years but never used, but they are 1500mi away, so bought Lisle plastic ones thinking at least that brand would work well. Not so much. Didn't need them anyway, since it was the vent hose that was in the way.

Actually, I changed the pump as a preventative measure since it seemed that average failure was around 170K mi and my vehicle has 168k and I will be shortly towing a car 1500mi with the Explorer and I didn't want to tempt fate.

The only "problem" I've had has been longer crank times when the engine is hot, and has sat for between 45 minutes and 2 hours (other times it starts right up whether cold, or hot but w/in 30 minutes of shut down), but the new pump hasn't change that as I figured it wouldn't.

Given the cost of paying "on the road" to have that job done vs doing myself now seemed like a no-brainer, and once I was aware of the average failure point, I simply wasn't going to enjoy the truck til it was replaced.

Oddly, the "sudden, unexplained acceleration" I posed elsewhere happened no more than 5mi from my friend's house where we did the pump on my way home. As Rosannadanna on SNL used to say (just before she died in real life), "It's always something!"

Sadly, she was right. Now I can worry about something else...

 

[koda2000]

Glad I am not alone with my aggravation w/ the evap and hoses.

I have a set of proper metal "scissors" fuel line tools I've had for years but never used, but they are 1500mi away, so bought Lisle plastic ones thinking at least that brand would work well. Not so much. Didn't need them anyway, since it was the vent hose that was in the way.

Actually, I changed the pump as a preventative measure since it seemed that average failure was around 170K mi and my vehicle has 168k and I will be shortly towing a car 1500mi with the Explorer and I didn't want to tempt fate.

The only "problem" I've had has been longer crank times when the engine is hot, and has sat for between 45 minutes and 2 hours (other times it starts right up whether cold, or hot but w/in 30 minutes of shut down), but the new pump hasn't change that as I figured it wouldn't.

Given the cost of paying "on the road" to have that job done vs doing myself now seemed like a no-brainer, and once I was aware of the average failure point, I simply wasn't going to enjoy the truck til it was replaced.

Oddly, the "sudden, unexplained acceleration" I posed elsewhere happened no more than 5mi from my friend's house where we did the pump on my way home. As Rosannadanna on SNL used to say (just before she died in real life), "It's always something!"

Sadly, she was right. Now I can worry about something else...

My '01 5.0L did the long crank when hot (maybe 6-7 seconds rather than the more usual 2 seconds) but always started until this winter. I honestly haven't driven it since I replace the fuel pump, so I don't know if it will make any difference, but the pump was definitely on the way out so it had to be done.

 

[koda2000]

My '01 5.0L did the long crank when hot (maybe 6-7 seconds rather than the more usual 2 seconds) but always started until this winter. I honestly haven't driven it since I replace the fuel pump, so I don't know if it will make any difference, but the pump was definitely on the way out so it had to be done.

Update:
I've been driving my '01 EB fairly often lately and the "long-crank when warm" is gone after replacing the FP.