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Direction i should fire Subs?

It does change the bass because it creates a type of compression effect. It usually pushes more air for SPL competition. I like mine firing toward the rear.
 



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Most of this information is incorrect. The real answer to the original question is "it depends." You won't really know what's going to give you the best bass unless you test it out first.

One of the most popular myths is that bass waves need time and distance to develop, and that longer distances cause the bass to be louder. This is simply not true. If it were, how would you explain the ability to hear deep bass in a pair of headphones? With a good set of headphones, your ears are extremely close to the transducers yet you can hear some pretty good bass. The further you move the headphones away from your ears the lower the bass volume becomes, right?

The reason is actually quite simple if you understand sound waves. Sound waves (and this includes "bass waves") from a speaker aren't really sine waves at all. The electrical representation of an audio signal may indeed be a composite of multiple sine waveforms, but an actual sound wave "that you can hear" is not. Sound waves are created by a transducer (usually consisting of a cone) that when activated by an amplifier, causes air to move. The cone moves in and out causing the air pressure emanating from it to fluctuate, so in fact a sound wave is an air pressure or compression wave rather than a transverse wave which is what a typical "sinusoidal waveform" looks like. A sinusoidal waveform appears to move up and down in a smooth motion, but an air compression wave is just a series of varying positive and negative air pressures, the speed of which varies with the frequency of the sound. The numerical values of the varying pressures can be graphed to look like a transverse wave, but the actual sound wave itself is not. Most textbooks, websites, etc. display sound waves as waveforms because that's the easiest way to visualize them.

The real reason the amount of bass you hear changes with the location of the sub is because of a term you've all probably heard before - phase cancellation. When you play music in a relatively small environment like a vehicle interior, air pressure waves are going to bounce all over the place and inevitably run into each other and cancel each other out or even positively reinforce themselves at certain frequencies. Placing a sub as far back as you can usually works pretty well - not because the bass waves now have a longer distance to travel, but because it usually minimizes the amount of phase cancellation that occurs.

Without any further information and if I had to take a guess, I think you could probably get pretty good results by corner loading the subs. Stick one in each rear corner and see what happens. But then again, like I said in the beginning, "it really depends."
 






ewf,

Good information but I don't quite understand what your saying is misinformation. I know from my experience that rear facing the sub(s) has provided better bass "feel" and I'm not sure if that's what you are saying is incorrect. I realize a lot of this stuff is just perception but I have tried different directions in all the vehicles I've owned and all but one sounded better facing the rear. I was also able to gain almost 1 db in an SPL contest by pushing the sub closer to the hatch on my Focus. I'm not doubting what you say, just looking for a better understanding of what your saying.
 






Hi NaplesBill,

No problem. I know I'm new here and I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. If you'll notice, what I'm saying is actually what you're saying. You will usually (but not always) get better bass by having the subs at the rear-most point in the vehicle and this is usually accomplished by placing the subs in the back and facing them toward the rear or up. As you also said that has always been the case except in one scenario, which is what I meant by it depends.

What I was referring to in terms of misinformation is the mistaken assumption that bass waves need to travel farther distances for them to be louder, or that they need time and space to develop. What I forgot to put in my original post is that the way the ear "hears" sound is by detecting the amount of time it takes for one air pressure front to arrive after the previous one. Lower frequencies will have a longer time before the next air pressure front. Higher frequencies have the air pressure fronts arriving much more frequently, hence they are heard as higher frequencies. The wavelength is the amount of distance from one air pressure front to the next, so the higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelength, and vice versa. So if one can understand it this way they can see why the distance really doesn't matter - it's actually just the AMOUNT OF TIME the ear senses between one air pressure front to the next.

So I'm not disagreeing with the end results that people are getting, just the reasons they believe they are getting those results. In essence, I'm just trying to explain the real reason why people are seeing the results they are seeing, so in this way, hopefully everybody will be better able to design their systems and make adjustments where they feel they are necessary without shooting in the dark so much.

I hope this explanation was helpful. If I can be of any further help please let me know.
 






if the sound waves are just air pressure then how can u even hear it outside? let alone 2-10 blocks away

im missing something i know i just dont understand it all
 


















Aight I ain't even gonna read the convo I got in mad late...but firing should be experimented with so if it wasn't said let me intro it...if it was then let me back someone up....experiment...side firing works for me....thanks have a nice day lol
 






i suppose the reason firing backwards is better (at least for a sealed box) is that it allows the wave to travel (using imaginary numbers) say, 5 feet to the rear hatch, then 5 feet back to the box, and 2 or 3 feet past there to the ears, as well as an extra few feet to, and off, the windshield.
 






ok i was expirementing today =-) with an spl track in my car and when i went inside my house and closed the doors the windows on the otherside of the house were rattaling

i just dont understand how theres enough pressure to move windows thats are mabey..40-45 feet away i know im just missing something id just like to understand =)
 






Sound waves take time to mature and blah blah blah yackity yack....so they don't actually hit premium when they are within the vehicle usually.....this is the reasoning for trying to sound deaden the vehicle so less sound gets out and it more or less bounces around keeping it inside until it is mature....by mature that means its loudest point....now the firing also helps in that matter and lets is bounce more sometimes before it gets to the front....its all science my friend...all science...
 






Sorry, HotCityPlaya, but part of this discussion has been about the very same myth that you are trying to spread here. Sounds do NOT "take time to mature." When sounds bounce around, if anything, they dissipate. The only time this wouldn't be true is in the case of a standing wave.

Mhn3773, I'm glad you're been experimenting with this stuff. Actually sound can go quite far. I've found a couple of websites that may help in explanation:

http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_background/TE-01/teces_01.html

[/url]]http://www.squ1.com/index.php?http://www.squ1.com/sound/propagation.html[/URL]

If you use the formula provided in the second website, you can calculate that a 100dB point source of sound will only be reduced to about 63dB at 20 meters, which is a bit over 60 feet. Certainly 63dB is audible. Also, the first website has a section that states, "the sound of the explosion of the volcano Krakatoa is said to have gone around the world three or four times."

On the second website also click on some of the links at the bottom left about sound. There's lots of useful info there.

Here's a third website that has a diagram at the bottom that might help explain the rattling windows on the back side of the house:

http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Sound_Propagation.html
 






Whoa buddy.....you may consider it myth as I stand here (or sit here) it is not......

I have done the tests I had read arguements on both sides.....you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine but I would have to whole heartdly disagree with you....im not going to supply links though...people need to do research for themselves and I am not equipped to supply any at this time.....
 






one more thing...baffles have worked very well for some of my fellow competitors and this does exactly what I am suggesting...lengthening the delivery to the mic....baffles in = higher scores .... baffles out= lower scores.... scores speak for themselves my man....im not doing this on someone elses theory or numbers I am doing this on our number and our theory...point blank i don't trust the theory of others until I test it myself...in which I have....
 






hey thanks ewf =) thats alot of info

also on hotctys thing u read so far that the bass is 2 things i forgot what they are called but one hits ur ear then the 2nd so if u reflect it off the car or baffles wouldnt it misalign the waves?

i promise ill learn this sooner or later =-) lol

o yah since at like 60 feet the sound doesnt disipate to much mabey i shouldnt expirement in my driveway anymore =) neighbors are less then 100 feet away..tee hehe
 






Mhn3773, I'm glad you found the info useful. What you're referring to in terms of the bass being "2 things" is probably direct and reflected sound. Actually to be completely accurate, it is much more than just "2 things". Because sound in an environment is bouncing all over the place, there is a lot of constructive and destructive interference. Constructive interference causes the amplitude of certain frequencies to increase and destructive interference does the opposite. When you have sound waves bouncing all over the place, it's hard to tell what frequencies will be enhanced and which ones will be attenuated. Actually the listener's position will also affect what is heard.

So to say that sound reflected off of the car or baffle would create "misaligned waves" is somewhat true, but I wouldn't really use that term. What is really happening is sound is going to reflect off of something somewhere and it's going to keep happening until there isn't enough energy in the air molecules to continue doing so. When you speak of a baffle, I'm assuming you're talking about mounting subs to a baffle board. All a baffle does is prevent the sound wave from the back of the speaker from interfering with the sound wave coming off of the front of the speaker. Since the front and back waves are 180 degrees out of phase, you would get a tremendous reduction in bass without a baffle for the sub to be mounted on. You can simulate this on a home stereo. Wire one of the speakers backwards compared to the other. Just do one speaker, not both. This will put one speaker out of phase with the other. Stand or sit in a position that is dead center in distance between the two. The bass will be really reduced and the soundstage will sound sort of spacy. If you move either direction toward one of the speakers, the bass should get a bit better. That's because, when you're right in the center the direct out of phase sound (especially in the bass) is getting to your ears at about the same time and being cancelled out right there. When you move to the sides, the phase cancellation isn't as complete because the sound from one speaker is arriving at your position at a different time from the other. "Misaligned waves" in and of itself are not necessarily bad - you're going to get them anyway because that's the nature of soundwaves. What you wnat to try to minimize is excessive destructive interference in the bass frequencies. By moving a sub toward the rear and facing them toward the back, you will typically get less destructive interference due to phase cancellation than if you place the subs somewhere else. This is not always the case, however, so experimentation is key.

If you have a subwoofer on a home stereo, you can try another experiment that will demonstrate phase cancellation. Put the subwoofer in a corner and play something with some decent bass. Now move around the room. You're going to find areas that have lots of bass, and some areas that don't. Now if you move the sub to a different place in the room, you'll find that the areas where there was good bass before will have changed. Same thing with a car. If you'll notice, this really has nothing to do with how far you are from the sub. You'll get good bass at certain places and inadequate bass in others and it really won't have anything to do with longer distances. You might hear a lot of bass in the furthest corner from where the sub is, but this is not really because it had "more time to develop" but rather because there is probably a standing wave from that corner to the other since they are parallel to each other.

Here's another link from one of the previous websites I gave you that might be helpful. Check out the Standing Waves and Interference sections in particular:

http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_background/TE-14/teces_14.html
 






that was helpfull to =)

what about rattles i know they can kill the bass in a car is that because the rattle just cancels out the bass?
 






I'm speaking of a ported box with baffles inside....
 






Could you show an example of a ported box with baffles inside? Thanks.
 



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Bah bro...not to be rude but I really don't have time tonight....if i get a chance I will show u tomorrow...sorry its the downside of telling your customers they can talk to you anytime they want.....sell a man a sub and tell him to call u in the morning....CAUSE HE WILL...
 






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