Do we have a new leader in oil filters now?

[glfredrick]

About the 72 million filters sold last year...

Average consumer probably changes his or her oil 4 times a year -- 300 million people in America -- likely that half or close to half drive or have a car -- 150 million people x 4 -- roughly 600 million filters sold

We here at Explorer Forum take perhaps a higher than average look at our vehicles and their performance... not to say that there are no other groups that do likewise, but you get the point.

If we cannot convince US here, that there may be a problem, what of the other millions of users out there that simply don't even think to ask?

Again, I say, just cut one open -- then cut ANY other filter open. You'll never go back. Do it on a Fram filter that you have run for its lifetime. That is ESPECIALLY a treat... seeing all those cardboard end caps all busted up and gone, etc. That stuff is going somewhere. Just not in MY engines.

 

[old mechanic]

I can testify that after reading those Fram articles and threads (this has been covered many times on this website years ago) I did quit using Fram. My engine had a slight tick/knock on startup that went away a couple seconds after the engine started. After reading the stuff about Fram I removed the orange Fram filter I was using and replaced it with a Motorcraft one, and the startup knock immediately went away. Several oil changes later I noticed that I had the startup knock and remembered that I had forgotten about Fram and had put an orange Fram on again. I replaced it and the knock went away again.

I've always been led to believe that most engine wear occurs at startup before the oil takes a few seconds to start circulating, so the fact that the Fram didn't seem to do as good a job getting the oil up in my engine as fast as other filters did was enough to give me pause to use one. In the long run it may make no noticeable or measurable difference in wear that can be directly attributed to the oil filter, so it is easy to see how it could not be red-flagged on consumer concern hit lists. Maybe it really doesn't make a measurable difference, but for the same money I'd just assume using another brand. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer own choice.

------------
I believe you about your experience with Fram oil filters. I never had that problem and a lot of my friends use them with no problems. A few friends of mine have repair shops and I never heard them talk about Fram having bad oil filters. So I just don't know what to say.
Actually, I use what ever is the cheapest brand. BUT NO I do not buy anything from Wally World. I used too.

 

[aldive]

It truly amazes me that anyone would skimp on such an important part of the vehicles motor ( and its life ).

 

[old mechanic]

It truly amazes me that anyone would skimp on such an important part of the vehicles motor ( and its life ).

-------------
I understand where your comming from Al but I never had a problem with any chepo oil filters I used. I have 2 vehicles with over 200,000+ miles on them and they have no problems relating to any of the chepo oil filters I have used.

 

[old mechanic]

GJARRET>>> THIS IS FOR YOU!!!
______________________________________________________________
I just called a friend of mine that has a repair shop and he told me that some of the Fram oil filters cause a little "TICKING" when starting up a cold vehicle. BUt he said that it wasn't a major concern to him.
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HOWEVER he also told me that some Mobil 1 OIL FILTERS do FAIL and he does not use them anymore.

 

[ma96782]

The Toyota engine recall was the biggest engine recall that I ever heard of.

No doubt...........what I was trying to point out is the difference between a Japanese MFN and an American MFN. So, TOYOTA made a mistake and did a re-call. Very honorable.

What does an American Co. do when they make a mistake............Ford w/ their 4.0L sohc engine timing chain issue...........or the Chevy piston slap high oil consumption issue? American makers run to a lawyer or a cost accountant. End result........no re-call (or only a limited re-call)..........or, company calls it, "Normal." Thus, you have to fight an expensive up-hill battle to make things right. Is that the horonable way of doing business?

OK (I admit).......honor and pursuit of $$$, don't exactly follow the same rules of ethics.........or, the way that one looks at it, differs from culture to culture.

But, does it mean that, Toyota makes &^$#* (Toyota being foreign = Cheap Quality) and American products are superior?

Which brings us back to the subject of the oil..........How much BETTER will the syn be (at a higher cost) when you're replacing it (Amsoil) at the same interval as dino? Is there a substantial cost benefit to justify the additional cost?
_________________________________________________________________

Well, getting back the to the Walmart SuperTech filter, it's made by Champion labs. They also make the Mobil 1 and K&N filters. It would be intetesting to cut all three open to see if there is actually any difference between them.

They are different, no argument there..........they get speced differently by the guy who wants to put his name on it.

_________________________________________________________________

It truly amazes me that anyone would skimp on such an important part of the vehicles motor ( and its life ).

For some, quality is measured by the price they pay.

For me..........I want proof. Cost benefit.........especially when I'm changing at the same interval as dino (as per Amsoil).

OR...........

Even IF, I were to change syn oil and a high priced filter, at an extended interval.......what would that be, 7K-10k-15k miles?, will a major car MFN stand behind that extended interval schedule?, and could you give me a cost benefit?
_________________________________________________________________

In the end..............you'll use what brand you want. Whatever you want to spend is up to you.

Aloha, Mark

 

[old mechanic]

No doubt...........what I was trying to point out is the difference between a Japanese MFN and an American MFN. So, TOYOTA made a mistake and did a re-call. Very honorable.

What does an American Co. do when they make a mistake............Ford w/ their 4.0L sohc engine timing chain issue...........or the Chevy piston slap high oil consumption issue? American makers run to a lawyer or a cost accountant. End result........no re-call (or only a limited re-call)..........or, company calls it, "Normal." Thus, you have to fight an expensive up-hill battle to make things right. Is that the horonable way of doing business?

OK (I admit).......honor and pursuit of $$$, don't exactly follow the same rules of ethics.........or, the way that one looks at it, differs from culture to culture.

But, does it mean that, Toyota makes &^$#* (Toyota being foreign = Cheap Quality) and American products are superior?

Which brings us back to the subject of the oil..........How much BETTER will the syn be (at a higher cost) when you're replacing it (Amsoil) at the same interval as dino? Is there a substantial cost benefit to justify the additional cost?
_________________________________________________________________


They are different, no argument there..........they get speced differently by the guy who wants to put his name on it.

_________________________________________________________________


For some, quality is measured by the price they pay.

For me..........I want proof. Cost benefit.........especially when I'm changing at the same interval as dino (as per Amsoil).

OR...........

Even IF, I were to change syn oil and a high priced filter, at an extended interval.......what would that be, 7K-10k-15k miles?, will a major car MFN stand behind that extended interval schedule?, and could you give me a cost benefit?
_________________________________________________________________

In the end..............you'll use what brand you want. Whatever you want to spend is up to you.

Aloha, Mark

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What does a American co do when they make a mistake??? You mean after they tried every possible way to give us the runaround, got pressured by everyone on earth to recall, went to court for 2-4 years to try and get out of it??? Well then they "may" honor it.
-----------
But i'm still going to buy American made.

 

[Minivek]

About the cheap stuff

I've seen a lot of cars get to 250 000 + on the cheapest oils and filters avaible, then again the might have been lucky. The way I see it, since we change oil on average 2-4 times per year, even if you buy premium synthetic oil and premium filter, you pay somewhere like 80-160 dollars per year (Average of 40 bucks per oil change), that comes out to 25 to 50 cents a day, to give your vehicle every chance of going for a real long time in great condition. I spend like 5 times that per day on coffee and softdrink at work or school, I'd rather be cuttin costs there b4 doing so on my truck.

As for filters, I like the ones made by purolator, sold at napa, the do a real good job, and I use mobile 0-50 or 5-50 cant rememeber, seems to work wonders up to now.

 

[ma96782]

Sorry double post.

Aloha, Mark

 

[ma96782]

$*^% happens, and not only w/ Fram filters:

http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236986

Aloha,Mark

PS..........

But i'm still going to buy American made.

I will also......but for me, it's an issue of buying spare parts, when things break, and they will, sooner or later.

 

[old mechanic]

I've seen a lot of cars get to 250 000 + on the cheapest oils and filters avaible, then again the might have been lucky. The way I see it, since we change oil on average 2-4 times per year, even if you buy premium synthetic oil and premium filter, you pay somewhere like 80-160 dollars per year (Average of 40 bucks per oil change), that comes out to 25 to 50 cents a day, to give your vehicle every chance of going for a real long time in great condition. I spend like 5 times that per day on coffee and softdrink at work or school, I'd rather be cuttin costs there b4 doing so on my truck.

As for filters, I like the ones made by purolator, sold at napa, the do a real good job, and I use mobile 0-50 or 5-50 cant rememeber, seems to work wonders up to now.

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Understood! But why would anyone want to throw away money on premium synthetic oil and premium oil filters when most of the lower priced ones are ok to use?
I am by no means trying to CONVINCE anyone to use EL-CHEPO products. I am just posting my good results with some of them.
I am a VERY firm believer in asking for advice when needed. I am in the middle of putting cordless impact wrenches in all of our vehicles. Am I going to put the $400-$500 ones that I now have in some of them? HELL NO!!! I just need something "good enough".
When I was younger I wanted the best of everything for my ride but as I learned later in life that the best is not always needed in some cases I grew out of having to have the best of anything when something lower priced will do just about the same job.
When you have 4 kids in college at the same time you learn to get by with somethings that are "good enough". Out of eight kids two got scholorships for sports. Geez! That was a blessing.

 

[ma96782]

I am by no means trying to CONVINCE anyone to use EL-CHEPO products. I am just posting my good results with some of them.

I just need something "good enough".

When I was younger I wanted the best of everything for my ride but as I learned later in life that the best is not always needed in some cases I grew out of having to have the best of anything when something lower priced will do just about the same job.

Well said.

Aloha, Mark

PS.............Yes, I buy "Great Value" products......sold at Wally World. And, use generic Rx drugs, when available.

 

[glfredrick]

I learned a long time ago that "good enough" generally cost me money in the long run. I now look for "reasonable quality."

That means that I don't necessarily spend the highest amount of bucks possible, but I'll spend what it takes to get a good product that does what I want it to do for the length of time I want to use it.

As a for instance, I use Snap On tools, almost exclusively. Saying that almost instantly gets me into an argument about how great Craftsman tools (name the brand) are. But, at the end of the day, what is really being said is that those other brands are "good enough" and that they are "almost as good as..." I've used both and disagree, so I spend the money.

I've sold, used, and otherwise dealt with the auto industry for a number of years. I've probably built over 100 motors in my day. I've actually cut open oil filters from every manufacturer, and most are fine. Some are better. One SUCKS, and it is Fram. I've not EVER seen one that has a regular life-span (say 2000 miles) on it that was not totally disintigrated inside. The fact that so many cars seem to run on them is NOT indiciative of the quality of the Fram filters -- it is indicative of the quality of the engine that is running them... After seeing over 100 Fram filters cut open, I've come to the conclusion that you may as well save your money totally, and just run an empty can. I'd rather have actual filtration.

One last point... what is happening in this thread, and several others that I've read lately is an effort to "deconstruct" the argument.

The tactic is meaningless in a true debate, but it works here where there are no rules.

A person makes a satement.
Someone counters with another statement.
SOME "objective" evidence is introduced to the debate
Then the "deconstruction" begins...

But - you spelled a word wrong, so your argument is invalid...
BUT - I did this and it worked...
BUT - Some ran that and it worked for them...
BUT - 72 million people can't be wrong...

BUT, BUT, BUT - yes, they can be wrong. It happens every day. Finding a couple of loopholes in the main point do not invalidate the point, they just speak to the odds that nothing is ALWAYS or EVER. I'm sure that somewhere there is a person out there that has NEVER changed his oil or filter and his engine is still running (in fact, I ran into just such a person the other day, and he had over 200K on his car!). That does not mean that he is RIGHT. It mainly means that he is LUCKY and has somehow beaten the odds.

 

[aldive]

Do sales numbers equate quality?

I think NOT; just look at how many Tornado's are sold each year.

I put Fram oil filters in the same category.

 

[ma96782]

I learned a long time ago that "good enough" generally cost me money in the long run. I now look for "reasonable quality."

OK.....sounds like the same thing......but, I guess you could quantify the difference between the two? I really don't expect you to........but, I think we may be on the same track.

.......a good product that does what I want it to do for the length of time I want to use it.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Ever wonder why a sourced government contracted hammer costs $100 when everyone else pays $10 at the local hardware store? Perhaps, it's cause the government uses the same arguements to justify their spending, to us taxpayers? (Beyond the regular, waste, fraud, and abuse theories).

You have to pay for quality. Quality isn't cheap. Brand X is what we buy. OR, AS AN EXAMPLE: We tested similar products and this one tested to 550,000 psi and the other brand only tested to 549,999 psi......(govt. spec says any product testing above 400,000 psi is suitible).........but, we get the BEST FOR THE JOB.

By the way......I don't KNOW what brand of filters the govt. uses in their fleet cars and trucks. So, since it's been brought up........if someone KNOWS that the govt. has done testing and put Fram on the $*%^ list, I'd be interested to KNOW.

Not saying that the govt. does everything correctly.........but, I have my doubts, sometimes.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

One last point... what is happening in this thread, and several others that I've read lately is an effort to "deconstruct" the argument.

As for Fram.......or X Brand........use what you like, here is the challenge:

Fram filter and dino changed at 3K miles vs. high cost oil filter (Amsoil or whatever) and syn oil changed at 3K..........can you prove that one is significantly better (more cost effective) than the other? Independent testing? Show me something?

Aloha, Mark

PS............as I said before, I don't use Fram oil filters.........but, go ahead an use a ST (Wally World) oil filter for the test..........I'll still be interested in the results.

OR....this test, Fram vs. none:

After seeing over 100 Fram filters cut open, I've come to the conclusion that you may as well save your money totally, and just run an empty can. I'd rather have actual filtration.

 

[stang99x]

You guys are amusing to say the least.

But if you want some meat on the problem list, I more than have it for you.
You want to run that high dollar amsoil, go ahead. Ford will counter your claim with the facts stated in their warranty.

Ford 4.6 and 5.4 engines both have statements written that up to 1 quart of oil may burn per 900 miles. So, if you take your (whatever the increment the foolish use) say 6000 mile change interval, and divide that by the 6 quarts a 5.4 or 4.6 holds, then you efficiantly are no running on.......less than a quart. So you could theoretically continuous fill'r up with amsoil, at the excessive cost per quart it is, and burn your wallet to the ground in no time. Realistically no it isn't likely, but if you had the hard case motor you'd be F'd.

Ford 5.4 is nortorious for piston slap at start-up, and especially after an oil change. It slaps hard enough that you'd think the bottom end would come out in a matter of a second, while it sometimes will last up to or over 10 seconds.

I'm not here to burn Ford down, I love ford and it is all I own. The problem isn't the oil, or the filter, its the idiots who don't follow the oil manufacturers own words. The oil manufacturer says change it every 3000 miles, then do it. The oil filter is tested by the oil manufacturer, and recommended to be changed at the same interval. When the dr gives you a prescription, do you take it every other day rather than every day as directed? Hell no, then it wouldn't work as efficiantly and you'd remain F'd up longer. I saw a Taurus yesterday in my place, with a K&N filter on it, that ran 8000 miles on dino oil. We crushed the filter and dino sludge oozed out of it. Thats just great for your engine.

And as for your recall of toyota engines, be a little more specific of what you think is recalled. A simple search shows no major recall of that engine. An alldata search shows no engine recall from 92 through 98 on camry (the quick shot I looked at) As a matter of a fact there was only 1 recall in 92, and 2 in 1998 and neither one was engine related. There is no toyota engine recall. They never recalled it. The biggest recall ever was done by none other than Ford. You boneheads need to get your info straight before you claim soemthing you think is true to be fact. Try edmunds next time, they do free recall information. All you have to do is enter the year make and model and walah, no engine recall on a yotor 4 banger.

I'm not trying to start a fire, just inform the uniformed

And on the original topic, there is absoltuely nothing wrong with Fram filters. Pennzoil and fram are the same, and probably the most widely used filter in the united states, without complaint enough to make a recall or any headlines. It is a myth that they are somehow not good filters. This is no different than people who want to discredit K&N filters for allowing crap into your engine for improved flow. I've installed 10's of thousands of pennzoil filters myself in all my years doing automotive work, and never seen one fail.

 

[rizzjc]

Wow, if an engine claims to burn up to a quart of oil for every 900 miles then I'll never buy that engine. I'm sorry, but that's insane.

Does Ford require a 3000 mile oil change? I doubt it. I've heard of "Manufacturers Recommended Oil Change Interval", but I've never heard of "Manufacturers Required Change Interval". All manufacturers test the filters and the oil? Seriously? So, it just so happens that 99% **recommend** the same oil change interval? Wow! That's an incredible coincidence.

Let's be realistic here. I'd say there are more cars moving at least toward 7500 mile change intervals. The only place I've ever seen 3000 mile change interval is Jiffy Lube. Gee, I wonder why they recommend that.

I have one question though. How do you "SEE" an oil filter fail? Tests have been done on filters to see how well they ... filter, to see if oil drails back out of them when you shut down, to see what they are made of. Paper don't last that long. It's pretty simple. I don't claim to know in reality what difference all of this makes, and I *choose* to use something that I *perceive* to be of higher quality, and better filtering, and better at cold start. It's my opinion, and my option. It doesn't mean that I am right, or wrong.

 

[aldive]

You want to run that high dollar amsoil, go ahead. Ford will counter your claim with the facts stated in their warranty.

Please share this warranty data.

Ford 4.6 and 5.4 engines both have statements written that up to 1 quart of oil may burn per 900 miles.

Care to share these?

So, if you take your (whatever the increment the foolish use) say 6000 mile change interval,

This fool goes 25k miles with UOA to back up the vality of that OCI.

I have yet to see you mention a UOA.

not here to burn Ford down, I love ford and it is all I own. The problem isn't the oil, or the filter, its the idiots who don't follow the oil manufacturers own words. The oil manufacturer says change it every 3000 miles, then do it.

Wonder why they say that? Hummm, me thinks they sell oil. Maybe its the uninformed ( I refuse to call one an idiot ) that are foolish by pouring perfectly good oil down the drain at 3k OCI.

The oil filter is tested by the oil manufacturer, and recommended to be changed at the same interval.

Care to share that test data?

I'm not trying to start a fire, just inform the uniformed

This mental midget would love to be enlightened by a knowledgeable oil person, know one?

And on the original topic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Fram filters.

Many disagree with you, sorry. Try cuttion open a Fram and say a Mobil 1 or Amsoil.

I've installed 10's of thousands of pennzoil filters myself in all my years doing automotive work, and never seen one fail.

Tens of thousands, wow. Pretty impressive for someone so young. You wouldn't be inflating the numbers, would you.

How do you determine failure? Ever do a UOA?

 

[Dan Whitaker]

Get 'em aldive get 'em.

IMO with all the people that change thier oil at 3000 miles they are contributing to the cost of higher fuel prices. It all comes from the same place (excluding synthetic).

Now if you are towing or live where the roads are gravel or dirt I can see a 3000 mile interval as this falls under severe conditions.

Wasn't it Jiffy Lube (more comanly known as Rippy Lube) that started the whole 3 month 3000 mile interval B.S. in the first place? Hmmm I wonder why?

Could it be $$$$$$

 

[Heavymentill]

I'm suprised I've heard no one talk about the importance of the check valve in an oil filter. I saw someone post about how most engine damage comes from start up. This is true. Thats why I beleive the check valve is the most important part of the oil filter. Just my opinion. My opinion, if your finding chunks of metal in your oil filter, time to sell it.