E85 is Ford zigging while everybody is zagging?

[Gator Jeff]

James and FRG, take a look at this link... E85 is NOT driving up feed costs.

http://www.foodandfuelamerica.com/2007/06/how-much-corn-is-acually-represented-in.html

If we gave 1/10 the money that we give to oil companies to our farmers, family farms wouldn't be suffering like this. We have a big election coming up in 2008, and I'm not here to promote any one candidate. My guy isn't even running. The point being, we need to elect people that will keep our money here and American farmers and workers in business. E85 can help with this.

 

[Ford_Racing_Guy]

i'm not arguing about feed costs.


ethanol just doesn't make any sense. its less efficent so more has to be used, in order to produce ethanol an immense amount of regular fuel is used.

not to mention weather permitting crops to supply the ethanol.

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

I hear that argument all the time...Ethanol takes more energy to produce than it yeilds. Well, people that tend to jump on that bandwagon seem to overlook something quite huge. Gasoline in its most refined state like you get it out of the pump didn't get pumped out of the ground that way. Stop and think about how much fuel it takes to transport a tanker ship of crude oil from the Middle East (not to mention how much it costs to insure that load!), the energy to refine that crude oil into various distillates, then blend them together to create the various products like gasoline, kerosene, diesel, etc. They then have to be transported to the fuel stations from the storage facilities and finally pumped into your vehicle. A considerable amount of energy is needed in every stage of petroleum production.

By contrast, ethanol is much simpler...Plant, grow, and harvest corn using the necessary energy to do so, convert it to ethanol, and ship it to the stations to be blended with 15% gasoline to create E85.
The "waste" corn (Dried Distiller's Grain or "brewer's mash" as it's known) can be sold to farmers as a high protein feed for cattle and other livestock, so the impact on cattle feed isn't as great as people tend to think...The only part of the corn that's used to produce ethanol is the starch...The remainder is still useable as feed, just like whole kernel corn would be.

Once ethanol technology gets more advanced, you'll begin to see much better energy yeilds. Some ethanol plants are even trying to use cellulosic biomass such as switchgrass to produce some of the necessary heat energy needed for ethanol production as well as converting the biomass directly into ethanol.

But...That's the biggest picture. On the smallest scale, I'm saving a bunch of money every time I pour E85 into my tank instead of gasoline, and the MPG I'm getting on it isn't nearly as poor as many tend to think. My MPG on E85 is nearly identical to what a 5.4L Expedition would get burning gasoline in the same driving environment. Sure, my Explorer may get a bit better MPG (not a whole lot, really) on gasoline, but the MPG it delivers on E85 is still acceptable by my standards, and the cost per gallon savings with E85 makes it come out just about equal if not slightly better in overall cost per mile driven. It also burns cleaner, my oil stays cleaner longer, the high octane gives me (according to Ford) an additional 5 HP and 7 ft. lbs. torque compared to regular unleaded, and it has a much cleaner smell out the tailpipe. Tests have shown that emission levels are greatly reduced as well, but we don't have emissions testing here, so that's a non-issue for me. If it's indeed true that it produces less emissions, that's wonderful. That's just an extra bonus for the environment.

 

[Gator Jeff]

I'll add one more reason to go with E85...

Gasoline = $$$ to already rich countries who often aren't exactly our friends
E85 = $$$ to American farmers who whenever possible buy American

Combine that with cleaner emissions, and personally, I'd even pay a little more. But as Mike said, it's probably equal. And that's before we start to see the advantages of mass production and a fully functional E85 infrastructure.

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

The price of beef is going to triple in the next 5 years because of E85. My father is getting out of the cattle business next year because he will no longer be able to afford feed through the winter. IMHO E85 is a waste of time because we will never be able to grow enough to keep up with its potential use. There has to be a better alternative.

According to this article, one has nothing to do with the other.
http://www.foodandfuelamerica.com/2007/05/hog-producer-higher-priced-corn-does.html


Here's another interesting little blurb I found:

The production of ethanol has a 34% energy gain, while the production of gasoline has a 19.5% energy loss, according to a 2004 USDA study.

Great website:
http://www.drivingethanol.org

 

[lechip1954]

James and FRG, take a look at this link... E85 is NOT driving up feed costs.

http://www.foodandfuelamerica.com/2007/06/how-much-corn-is-acually-represented-in.html

If we gave 1/10 the money that we give to oil companies to our farmers, family farms wouldn't be suffering like this. We have a big election coming up in 2008, and I'm not here to promote any one candidate. My guy isn't even running. The point being, we need to elect people that will keep our money here and American farmers and workers in business. E85 can help with this.

Amen
This is the main reason I enjoy using E85.
All the negative stories about Ethanol E85 I believe were fabricated by industries that are threatened by it.

 

[baseballX]

While E85 derived from corn is a good alternative to gasoline, it's not nearly the best. Talking with my father, who is employed by a major oil company (and no, I'm not going to say which), E85 is still seen as a "temporary fix" until a better alternative fuel becomes more readily available. There are other plant sources that can be turned into useful fuels (i.e. sugar cane, switch grass) that yield a better energy input to output ratio than corn. Corn was initially used (and still is) because it is readily available in the US. This is why many car companies, such as Ford, are shying away from committing to diversified FFV line up because gasoline has always be a mainstay where E85 may not be. I'm aware other factors play into that, but the point is the industry isn't ready to make a complete change to a fuel that may be obsolete in 10 to 20 years.

I found this article interesting... while I wouldn't take it at face value for everything it says, it does point out why E85 still has a lot of skeptics.

http://autos.aol.com/article/hybrid/v2/_a/are-there-problems-with-e85/20060427121009990001

Beyond E85, there are other fuels that are more promising, such as hydrogen fuel cells and bio-diesel. Just as an example, Iceland plans to move every single vehicle to run on hydrogen within 30 years and already had hydrogen fueling stations opening up as early as 2003. While Iceland consumes a fraction of the total energy the US consumes, it's a good example that change can be made effectively if there is a willingness to make it (which I think there is a lack of in the US). And diesel engines were originally designed to run on peanut oil, which shows their untapped fuel versatility (especially when you can make your own fuel from McDonalds' waste grease).

As always too, one has to note the politics involved in all of this. Yes, big oil and car makers are in bed to some extent, but using that logic everybody is in bed with everybody. It's all about your own world view. And in the US society where no one wants to hurt or offend anyone, changes that hold this kind of impact will come very slowly, if at all.

The point is that it's going to be tough to completely move to an alternative fuel. It's much easier for car manufacturers to modify engines on existing fuel (hybrids, etc) then to endevor a new type entirely. I do believe that the US depends to much on foreign oil and should move to energy sources that support and sustain the US job market and economy. But sometimes you just can't teach on old dog new tricks unless you really give it some motivation to do so. Or just get a new dog

 

[Gator Jeff]

There are other plant sources that can be turned into useful fuels (i.e. sugar cane, switch grass) that yield a better energy input to output ratio than corn....

Wouldn't the end product of switch grass, sugarcane or any other bio-mass still be ethanol???

I found this article interesting... while I wouldn't take it at face value for everything it says, it does point out why E85 still has a lot of skeptics.

http://autos.aol.com/article/hybrid/v2/_a/are-there-problems-with-e85/20060427121009990001

I can understand the skeptics, but I think in this thread alone, Mike has already shot a hole in every one of these arguements.

Beyond E85, there are other fuels that are more promising, such as hydrogen fuel cells and bio-diesel. Just as an example, Iceland plans to move every single vehicle to run on hydrogen within 30 years and already had hydrogen fueling stations opening up as early as 2003. While Iceland consumes a fraction of the total energy the US consumes, it's a good example that change can be made effectively if there is a willingness to make it (which I think there is a lack of in the US). And diesel engines were originally designed to run on peanut oil, which shows their untapped fuel versatility (especially when you can make your own fuel from McDonalds' waste grease).

While I think Hydrogen would have some great advantages, the issue is that we have almost zero infrastructure to support it. Bio-diesel on the other hand is another fuel that should be pursued. Both it, and E85 can be used in our existing fuel infrastructure with little or no modifications.

As always too, one has to note the politics involved in all of this. Yes, big oil and car makers are in bed to some extent, but using that logic everybody is in bed with everybody. It's all about your own world view. And in the US society where no one wants to hurt or offend anyone, changes that hold this kind of impact will come very slowly, if at all.

The point is that it's going to be tough to completely move to an alternative fuel. It's much easier for car manufacturers to modify engines on existing fuel (hybrids, etc) then to endevor a new type entirely. I do believe that the US depends too much on foreign oil and should move to energy sources that support and sustain the US job market and economy. But sometimes you just can't teach on old dog new tricks unless you really give it some motivation to do so. Or just get a new dog

Yeah, new dog is right. I heard a great description of politics and the difference between Republicans and Democrats. "Different wings, same bird!" And I think it's high time we get a new bird or... new dog.

 

[stephenuke]

Ironically, look how many corn growers (at least in the northeast) have sold their farms, over the last 10+ years to developers because they could make more money selling their land than selling corn.

Now we are seeing prices going up corn products, affecting both livestock feed and human consumption, because corn is now considered the savior to our fuel problems.

I still believe diesel is a better option. We have been too slow in this country to adapt to cleaner diesels and there are other bio-fuels that need to be explored (switchgrass for example). Brazil appears to be doing it right - they made a commitment to renewable fuel using cane sugar and developed an efficient process around it.
Talk about politics and mariages to big oil! Mind blowing!!

 

[lechip1954]

Yeah, new dog is right. I heard a great description of politics and the difference between Republicans and Democrats. "Different wings, same bird!" And I think it's high time we get a new bird or... new dog.

I agree with this statement.

 

[kert0307]

Ironically, look how many corn growers (at least in the northeast) have sold their farms, over the last 10+ years to developers because they could make more money selling their land than selling corn.

The reason most farmers get out of the business is due to poor buisiness planning. Farmers, like most people in the US are far to willing to go into dept. Unlike most occupations, grain farmer only get payed when they sell their grain. Imagine getting your whole salery in one lump sum midway through the year. If you don't budget it right, what happends when you run out and have nothing left to sell, and need to buy seed to plant for the next year. Farmers need to know how to keep a budget in order to survive, they are never guaranteed an amount.

Also the amount of corn planted this year in the US in crazy. Usually farmers switch between planting a field corn on year and beans the next because corn takes a lot of nutrients out of the ground, and beans replenish it to some extent (same thing as why they planted peanuts on old tabbacco ground back in the day). Well this past year most farmers have planted corn on corn ground. There are a few companies that even ran out of seed because they saw and increase of 75% in corn seed sales... Some seed corn varieties are even going for $200+ for one 50 pound bag that will do about 1.5-2 acres of land. My dad is a small/middle sized family farm, and he has about 600 acres of land, 300 are corn this year, do the math... add to it the cost of fuel, fertalizer, chemicals, machinery maintenance.

And place your bet on the price of corn to see if you will make nothing or 100k profit for the year

I will have to agree though, that corn based ethanol isn't the answer (it is a good start), but people fail to realize the amount of capital, and infostructre needed to make ethanol from lets say switchgrass, which would be a much better source. Farmers will need new machinery, new plants to produce ethanol from swtich grass will need to be made. You can't throw some switchgrass or sugarcan into a corn ehtanol plant and expect it to work...

 

[Ford_Racing_Guy]

i can judge by just the 10 percent blend that is available.

drops my mileage down.

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

Not to throw the thread completely off-topic, but one thought I had was to figure out a way to produce ethanol on a very small scale from grass clippings. That way, I could tune my lawn mower to run on E100 and have something very close to a completely self-sustaining method for cutting my lawn.

Just one of those dumb thoughts I have when my brain is still engaged while I'm trying to relax at night.

In all reality, this thread should probably be moved to the Biofuels forum since it's really not vehicle-specific.

 

[Gator Jeff]

Not to throw the thread completely off-topic, but one thought I had was to figure out a way to produce ethanol on a very small scale from grass clippings. That way, I could tune my lawn mower to run on E100 and have something very close to a completely self-sustaining method for cutting my lawn.

Just one of those dumb thoughts I have when my brain is still engaged while I'm trying to relax at night.

In all reality, this thread should probably be moved to the Biofuels forum since it's really not vehicle-specific.

Mike, check out this link.... http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/index.html

Agreed on the move to biofuels.

 

[james t]

I did not mean to imply that ethanol was a complete waste of time, its just that making the stuff out of corn is not the answer long term. We simply cannot grow enough. As stated above, corn does not give the highest energy yeild to energy input ratio. Also, the majority of vehicles in this country arent running E85 yet. I have seen no evidence that we can even come close to supporting every vehicle in this nation on E85 when using corn.

Either way, im sticking to my guns... there has to be a better alternative. You cannot convince me that E85 will be our savior. I think the alternative in the near future will have to be a combination of a few things:

biodiesel
E85
industry kicked in the nuts by someone to rapidly produce a more fuel efficient vehicle

In 1985, you could go buy a brand new 3/4 ton 4x4 that got 13-14 mpg in town. In 2007, you can go buy a brand new 3/4 ton 4x4 that gets 13-14 mpg in town. There is simply no excuse for that.

 

[kert0307]

I did not mean to imply that ethanol was a complete waste of time, its just that making the stuff out of corn is not the answer long term. We simply cannot grow enough. As stated above, corn does not give the highest energy yeild to energy input ratio. Also, the majority of vehicles in this country arent running E85 yet. I have seen no evidence that we can even come close to supporting every vehicle in this nation on E85 when using corn.

Either way, im sticking to my guns... there has to be a better alternative. You cannot convince me that E85 will be our savior. I think the alternative in the near future will have to be a combination of a few things:

biodiesel
E85
industry kicked in the nuts by someone to rapidly produce a more fuel efficient vehicle

In 1985, you could go buy a brand new 3/4 ton 4x4 that got 13-14 mpg in town. In 2007, you can go buy a brand new 3/4 ton 4x4 that gets 13-14 mpg in town. There is simply no excuse for that.

I agree on all those points, but ethanol from corn is a good start, I just hope the progression continues...

 

[baseballX]

Wouldn't the end product of switch grass, sugarcane or any other bio-mass still be ethanol???

Yes, but the point is that it yields much higher amounts. I know sugar cane yields an input to output energy ratio of around 8:1, where I think corn is somewhere around 2:1.

I can understand the skeptics, but I think in this thread alone, Mike has already shot a hole in every one of these arguements.

I agree, but the point is there is always two sides to every argument. Someone on the opposite side of Mike can say the sources he listed do not have a balanced view of what the situation is with E85. I don't care how great something is, there are always positives and negatives to everything. It's what you choose to focus on.

While I think Hydrogen would have some great advantages, the issue is that we have almost zero infrastructure to support it. Bio-diesel on the other hand is another fuel that should be pursued. Both it, and E85 can be used in our existing fuel infrastructure with little or no modifications.

Bio-diesel and E85 are easier switches, but perhaps not the long term solution (which may be why some auto makers are avoiding FFV line ups)

Yeah, new dog is right. I heard a great description of politics and the difference between Republicans and Democrats. "Different wings, same bird!" And I think it's high time we get a new bird or... new dog.

Exactly


As an anecdote: One of professors in my engineering manufacturing class pointed out a good issue. With the technology today, light bulb makers have the ability to make bulbs (and similar products) that easily last for tens of years or longer. But if they do so, they sell less products that replace broken ones. The point being, they design them to fail so you have to go buy a new one so they can continue to make money. Think about how long LED's last and how little electricity they require... or here's another quick example:
http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/736/
So relate that to E85 from corn or any other source to produce alternative fuel. While it may be the smarter choice, it may not be the more profitable one. If you want to know a company's true ideals, just follow the money.

 

[John_Rock]

I agree, but the point is there is always two sides to every argument. Someone on the opposite side of Mike can say the sources he listed do not have a balanced view of what the situation is with E85. I don't care how great something is, there are always positives and negatives to everything.
As an anecdote: One of professors in my engineering manufacturing class pointed out a good issue. With the technology today, light bulb makers have the ability to make bulbs (and similar products) that easily last for tens of years or longer. But if they do so, they sell less products that replace broken ones. The point being, they design them to fail so you have to go buy a new one so they can continue to make money. Think about how long LED's last and how little electricity they require... or here's another quick example:
http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/736/
So relate that to E85 from corn or any other source to produce alternative fuel. While it may be the smarter choice, it may not be the more profitable one. If you want to know a company's true ideals, just follow the money.

One of the evil's of Capitalism. Technology is not taken to its highest level in the consumer market because it cuts profitability. I wish I could live for 1000 years and see what develops.

 

[shaker1]

I agree, but the point is there is always two sides to every argument. Someone on the opposite side of Mike can say the sources he listed do not have a balanced view of what the situation is with E85. I don't care how great something is, there are always positives and negatives to everything. It's what you choose to focus on.

Precisely. Remaining uninvolved, emotionally and egotistically, allows a better view of both sides. However, most take a stand early on and from that point forward have a difficult time incorporating new information that disagrees with their predisposed views..

As an anecdote: One of professors in my engineering manufacturing class pointed out a good issue. With the technology today, light bulb makers have the ability to make bulbs (and similar products) that easily last for tens of years or longer. But if they do so, they sell less products that replace broken ones. The point being, they design them to fail so you have to go buy a new one so they can continue to make money.

I think your professor oversimplified this issue considerably. A market-based consumer-driven economy has a way of seeking it's own level. If you produce a light bulb that lasts 10 times longer and costs more money it will find a limited market because many people will refuse to pay the higher price. And the company's ability to remain in business selling products that never wear out will cause it to raise it's prices or go bankrupt. No free lunch!

My company makes products that last for decades and function flawlessly throughout their lifecycle. Guess what? Our customers do not want to pay for this long term reliability/functionality. They seek cheaper less reliable alternatives.

Back to E85. I hope it works out to decrease our reliance on foreign oil. But, if it weren't for tax dollars subsidizing growers & producers, plus government mandates it would not survive. Add to that real world examples of it's impact on food pricing, feed costs and fuel economy and the picture dims quite a bit. Anyone can take their E85 vehicle to a dyno and have it tuned for E85 and maximize their fuel economy. However, higher octane does not make up for the lower energy per gallon. And the lower stoichiometric ratio demands a higher fuel to air mix.

I salute EB Cornburner's commitment to this technology and hope we can overcome many of these hurdles without paying both at the pump and via tax subsidies. Still, I believe that if E85 were adopted on a much greater scale it would drive prices through the roof! Be careful what you wish for.

 

[briwayjones]

While E85 derived from corn is a good alternative to gasoline, it's not nearly the best. Talking with my father, who is employed by a major oil company (and no, I'm not going to say which), E85 is still seen as a "temporary fix" until a better alternative fuel becomes more readily available. There are other plant sources that can be turned into useful fuels (i.e. sugar cane, switch grass) that yield a better energy input to output ratio than corn. Corn was initially used (and still is) because it is readily available in the US. This is why many car companies, such as Ford, are shying away from committing to diversified FFV line up because gasoline has always be a mainstay where E85 may not be. I'm aware other factors play into that, but the point is the industry isn't ready to make a complete change to a fuel that may be obsolete in 10 to 20 years.

The thing is it would basically be no cost for Ford to support E85 and make their vehicles FFV. Basically if I'm not mistaken all it is on modern vehicles to run E85 is a computer tune. And they already have had it on some of their vehicles so why not make them all FFV.