E85 is Ford zigging while everybody is zagging?

[lechip1954]

I find it puzzling why Ford discontinued flex fuel Explorers and Mounties in 2006 just when ethanol E85 is starting to become plentiful.
the current line up of flex fuel vehicles is the F-150 Crown Vic and Town Car.
I have a 2003 flex fuel Mounty and have been able to get E85 for $2.20 / gal which has been nice.
Yesterday the House of Reps passed the energy bill which includes stepping up porduction of alternate fuels.
This would be the time to produce more flex fuel vehiles.

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

Ever notice the fuel caps on the newer Fords? "Ford recommends BP". I'm sure that came at a price. Why would they hurry to bring alternate fuel vehicles to market when they're getting greased (no pun intended) by Big Oil?

The only reason the carmakers are really bringing FFVs to market is because it exempts that vehicle from CAFE regulations. Hence the reason why the biggest fuel guzzlers are normally the FFVs.

I just had this discussion on another message board, and we pretty much concluded that the carmakers are in bed with big oil to some degree. This also explains why the FFVs don't get the MPG they could when they're burning E85. The systems could be tuned to deliver much more efficiency than they do right now, but it doesn't affect anyone but the end user. EPA rates the MPG on gasoline, not E85, and that's all the carmakers care about.

Have you noticed a pattern in that the newer FFVs get considerably worse MPG than the first versions (Taurus, Caravan) that made it to market? The carmakers realized the technology didn't have to be as precise as they originally thought was necessary to still perform well. So, they "dumbed down" the systems in the interest of saving money. If it wasn't as efficient as before, so what...It still works, and since the EPA doesn't care about it, they can make it as crude as possible without causing warranty issues.

I'm speculating that big oil had something to do with that too...Gasoline MPG keeps gettting better, but E85 MPG gets worse? Look at the '07 F-150...18 MPG highway, but burn E85 in it and you're barely getting 10 MPG. The technology is there to get E85 to deliver close to the same MPG as gasoline, but that would hurt the oil companies more than if it were to get considerably poorer MPG, to the point where people say forget it and just run gasoline in their FFVs.

Sorry for the rant...I get a little steamed about how politics control so many things.

 

[mreed112]

Please elaborate on the technology that overcomes the basic fact that E85 contains significantly less energy that gasoline.

 

[lechip1954]

Ever notice the fuel caps on the newer Fords? "Ford recommends BP". I'm sure that came at a price. Why would they hurry to bring alternate fuel vehicles to market when they're getting greased (no pun intended) by Big Oil?

The only reason the carmakers are really bringing FFVs to market is because it exempts that vehicle from CAFE regulations. Hence the reason why the biggest fuel guzzlers are normally the FFVs.

I just had this discussion on another message board, and we pretty much concluded that the carmakers are in bed with big oil to some degree. This also explains why the FFVs don't get the MPG they could when they're burning E85. The systems could be tuned to deliver much more efficiency than they do right now, but it doesn't affect anyone but the end user. EPA rates the MPG on gasoline, not E85, and that's all the carmakers care about.

Have you noticed a pattern in that the newer FFVs get considerably worse MPG than the first versions (Taurus, Caravan) that made it to market? The carmakers realized the technology didn't have to be as precise as they originally thought was necessary to still perform well. So, they "dumbed down" the systems in the interest of saving money. If it wasn't as efficient as before, so what...It still works, and since the EPA doesn't care about it, they can make it as crude as possible without causing warranty issues.

I'm speculating that big oil had something to do with that too...Gasoline MPG keeps gettting better, but E85 MPG gets worse? Look at the '07 F-150...18 MPG highway, but burn E85 in it and you're barely getting 10 MPG. The technology is there to get E85 to deliver close to the same MPG as gasoline, but that would hurt the oil companies more than if it were to get considerably poorer MPG, to the point where people say forget it and just run gasoline in their FFVs.

Sorry for the rant...I get a little steamed about how politics control so many things.

EB - thanks for that enlightening reply.
What you say makes perfect sense, I do believe that the automakers have always been "in bed" with big oil to some degree hence the fact that the Japaneese are getting better mph. It's ashame that we have technologies but are still manipulated by poiltics.

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

Please elaborate on the technology that overcomes the basic fact that E85 contains significantly less energy that gasoline.

It's actually quite simple. While E85 has a stoichiometric A/F ratio of 9.85:1, it can run fine on significantly leaner mixtures. Additionally, E85 burns more completely, so there's virtually no wasted unburned fuel going out the tailpipe. The earlier models had sensors in the fuel tank or line that would detect the actual amount of alcohol present in the fuel, and could better optomize the fuel and spark curves accordingly. Since E85 has such a high (100-105) octane rating compared to gasoline, the spark curve can be much more agressive, therefore developing more power and getting efficiency close to that of gasoline.
The new systems simply read the O2 activity, and "guesstimate" what fuel is being used. It's never perfect, but close enough to not cause driveability problems, and is probably engineered to be richer than ideal just as a fail-safe measure.
If you looked at the MPG of say a '98 Caravan running E85 vs. gasoline, there wasn't nearly the drop in MPG running E85 compared to most the new FFVs on the market.

So, although E85 does contain less heat energy than gasoline, due to the more efficient burn characteristics and higher octane, if the FFVs were calibrated more precisely to take advantage of this, they could develop much better efficiency than they are right now.

 

[Dan Whitaker]

I have yet to se E85 at any pump here in Kansas City.

The problem now is Milk & beef, chicken, & pork products are getting out of control because off all the corn being used for E85 is drivnig up all the feed cost.

So to me E85 is a mute point. Sure fuel is cheaper but you have to eat don't you

 

[green4WDmonster]

I'm no expert, but i'm betting we'll start to see a return to the E85 ethanol vehicles for Ford. I've been reading everything i can find on the current state of Ford and the culture that has developed in the company is one of distrust and fear of failure amoung engineers and management. Pretty much, "don't rock the boat". And I have to agree with E.B., politics suck....big time. The priority at Ford right now is a return to profitablitly, you would think dumbing down the fuel/computer system of a vehicle with so much potential would make no sense. Especially considering how much money these gas guzzling trucks brought into Ford during the 90's, but that's how things worked at Ford. Hopefully with the new CEO at the helm, that'll change.

 

[Gator Jeff]

Yeah, the politics are just awful. All this crap about tax credit this and tax cut this, but they don't do anything to give incentive to farmers to grow more to solve the problems Dan mentioned. Although I'd suggest that the increased prices he is seeing is as much a result of higher transportation costs as it is the higher feed costs.

A question for E.B., is there anyway that the end user can easily re-tune the current crop of E85 vehicles to relize the higher fuel economy that you say and I agree is possible with E85.

I watched (on TV) the IndyCar race in Iowa this weekend. It's nice to see Ethanol sponsoring IndyCar and getting a lot of exposure that way. I know it's not as high a profile series as NASCAR, but still. I really wish that NASCAR had gone to E85 or Esomething instead of just switching to unleaded. If they were going to make the teams switch from leaded, it would have been nice to see such an "American" sport use a more "American" fuel. But I guess Sunoco doesn't have any interest in Ethanol fuels and we all know NASCAR just follows the money.

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

It's very possible to tune for better MPG with E85, but nobody seems willing to play with it. Evidently, there's either not enough demand, or not enough knowledge yet to bring a re-write program to market.

NASCAR has mentioned going to an ethanol fuel at some point, but so far it hasn't left the discussion table.
There has been a couple prototype E85 fueled Chevy Silverados in the Craftsman Truck Series, but it's still not a mainstream fuel. They did it to show the motoring public that ethanol can be used as a high-performance fuel just like gasoline, if not better.

 

[Gator Jeff]

Thanks EB. I don't follow the CTS as much as I do the other series, but I do recall now something about the E85 Silverados. As for the reprograms, I can't imagine it will be long before someone figures it out. It might be a while before its a mass produced tuning product, but I'm sure there is someone in their garage trying to figure it out. And with the later, it won't cost nearly as much because that person will likely share it for free and not be profit driven.

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

I have yet to se E85 at any pump here in Kansas City.

Take a look here.
http://www.e85refueling.com/

I searched for stations in the greater KC area, and found 26 of them within 100 miles of KC.

As for your concerns about rising food costs due to ethanol production, check this site out:
http://www.foodandfuelamerica.com/

 

[Dan Whitaker]

Take a look here.
http://www.e85refueling.com/

I searched for stations in the greater KC area, and found 26 of them within 100 miles of KC.

As for your concerns about rising food costs due to ethanol production, check this site out:
http://www.foodandfuelamerica.com/

Mine is not flex fuel. If it was the closest station to me is 6 miles away. Too far for me to drive for gas. I would burn roughly 1 gal of gas just to get gas.

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

The first E85 station near me was roughly 18 miles away. But...Gasoline was ~2.40/gallon, and E85 was 85 cents per gallon during their grand opening, then went to $1.35 and held there for a long time. It was worth it to take a drive out there and get fuel. Not to mention it's kind of out in the country, so late at night when there were no lines it was really quiet and peaceful while I was filling up.

Within the last year or so, they built a station about 1.5 miles from me. There's a BP station right around the corner, but I only go in there for "necessities" like soda, beer, and once in a while, a tin of chew. You know, those important items.

 

[mikeh44]

mshad an article on e85 and cost per mile vs cost per gallon i run e85 it costs me 19 cent to use gas per mile and 19 cents per mile for e85 at corrent prices even with the less mpg

 

[E.B. Cornburner]

For me personally, I'd use E85 even if it were more expensive per mile. It's supporting local farmers and at least here, a local ethanol plant which employs several hundred people.

It's cleaner burning, oil tends to stay much cleaner, and most importantly to me, it gives the big ol' corn-fed middle finger to big oil.

 

[Gator Jeff]

For me personally, I'd use E85 even if it were more expensive per mile. It's supporting local farmers and at least here, a local ethanol plant which employs several hundred people.

It's cleaner burning, oil tends to stay much cleaner, and most importantly to me, it gives the big ol' corn-fed middle finger to big oil.

EXACTLY!

I'm a huge diesel fan as you can probably tell from my other posts, and the same goes for bio-diesel. Not quite as clean burning as E85, but a very effiecient fuel. If the oil companies won't adapt to bio-fuels, we can support companies that do. You gotta love Bio-Willie!

Besides, the last thing this country needs is to be held by the balls by a bunch of unstable countries, many of whom hate us but don't mind getting rich off us. Let's keep our money right here!

 

[UKExploder]

EXACTLY!

I'm a huge diesel fan as you can probably tell from my other posts, and the same goes for bio-diesel. Not quite as clean burning as E85, but a very effiecient fuel. If the oil companies won't adapt to bio-fuels, we can support companies that do. You gotta love Bio-Willie!

Besides, the last thing this country needs is to be held by the balls by a bunch of unstable countries, many of whom hate us but don't mind getting rich off us. Let's keep our money right here!

Hooray, another diesel fan! In the UK they sell a 'sister' vehicle to the Explorer, strangely reclaiming the name Maverick, it looks very similar , and is being sold and used btw, with a 2.7L Turbo Diesel engine which definitely gets MUCH better mpg, around 40+ mpg!! Why doesn't Ford let the US copy this idea?? Maybe it (fuel) just needs to get to costing what it does here 1st huh? {around an equivalant to $7.60/gallon)....

 

[Gator Jeff]

Hooray, another diesel fan! In the UK they sell a 'sister' vehicle to the Explorer, strangely reclaiming the name Maverick, it looks very similar , and is being sold and used btw, with a 2.7L Turbo Diesel engine which definitely gets MUCH better mpg, around 40+ mpg!! Why doesn't Ford let the US copy this idea?? Maybe it (fuel) just needs to get to costing what it does here 1st huh? {around an equivalant to $7.60/gallon)....

Man, those numbers make me want to look at trying to import one. Even if I'd be driving on the wrong side of the car!

I know Honda is considering bringing over a diesel Accord (or Civic) and BMW is even considering bringing over a 1-series diesel as we go low sulfur over here. VW of course will be back in full force and Mercedes Benz is supposedly expanding their line up.

Hopefully, once we get the emissions and fuel supply straightend out, it will be just a manner of diverting some Euro cars over here and manufactures won't have the excuse that it would be too expensive to re-tool for an "unproven" vehicle.

 

[james t]

The price of beef is going to triple in the next 5 years because of E85. My father is getting out of the cattle business next year because he will no longer be able to afford feed through the winter. IMHO E85 is a waste of time because we will never be able to grow enough to keep up with its potential use. There has to be a better alternative.

 

[Ford_Racing_Guy]

Ethanol is a waste of time and money, in my opinion.


Perhaps ford is getting out now because of it.