Explorer and Coleman Avalon PUP - Is it advisable?

[Sirius33]

New member and seeking your collective wisdom.

We have a 1999 Explorer XLT, 4.0L SOHC and the 3.73 axle ratio. The kit is rated at 5,680lbs max towing capacity.

The Coleman Avalon (Highlander Series) has a GVWR of 4,600lbs and a UVW of 3,805lbs.

80% of the Explorer's 5,680lbs is 4,544lbs - slightly less than the Avalon's GVWR of 4,600lbs. Is this "extra capacity" sufficient to cover most scenarios?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Blee1099]

With an additional transmission cooler, temperature gauge, and possibly new fluid & filter I'd say you probably could do it, however the 5R55E may not like towing it.

 

[Sirius33]

Ble1099

I appreciate your feedback and suspected this might be the case. What about stepping down to the "smaller" Highlander Series PUP - the Niagara?. It's GVWR is 3,970# with an UVW (dry weight) of 3,275#.

Thanks again.

 

[gijoecam]

New member and seeking your collective wisdom.

We have a 1999 Explorer XLT, 4.0L SOHC and the 3.73 axle ratio. The kit is rated at 5,680lbs max towing capacity.

The Coleman Avalon (Highlander Series) has a GVWR of 4,600lbs and a UVW of 3,805lbs.

80% of the Explorer's 5,680lbs is 4,544lbs - slightly less than the Avalon's GVWR of 4,600lbs. Is this "extra capacity" sufficient to cover most scenarios?

Thanks in advance.

I'm not quite sure where your numbers came from... From page 171 of the 99 Explorer owner's manual, the 4.0L SOHC with a 3.73 is rated for 4535lbs (10,000 gross combined weight rating) and the 5.0L is rated for 4990 lbs (11,000 GCWR) whether it's a 4x2 or a 4x4.

Now, with the new numbers in mind, and knowing that Fleetwood's numbers are notoriously optimistic, 3800 is the dry weight.... figure another 40 lbs for propane, 60 lbs for the battery (generally not included in the dry weight), 30 gallons of water at 7 lbs/gallon for 210 lbs (more if you have a full water heater), plus another 200-300 lbs of gear (cooking supplies, food, clothes, bedding, etc) and realistically you're looking at somewhere around 4100-4200 lbs before you ever leave the house.

Oh, and you want to take the family too? Add another 130 lbs of wife, 75lbs each kid, car seats, diaper bags, coolers for brown-pop and ginger-ales, luggage, TV, etc... there's 500 lbs (or more) towing capacity lost.

Then there's the issue of weight distribution. Fleetwood trailers with front storage trunks are notoriously tongue-light. The '04-up designs are better than the 03.5 and previous models, but still not great. To get the 10-15% tongue weight they recommend, you'll need between 400 and 500 lbs of tongue weight, and that will require a weight distributing hitch. Without it, I can guarantee you will be well over the rear GAWR, exceptionally nose-light on the tow vehicle, and you will NOT have a pleasant towing experience. Add up the weight of the hitch, and you've lost another 60-70 lbs off your capacity too.

And then there's the transmission... If you have a V-8, you shouldn't have an issue with power. With the V-6, on the other hand, it'll be anemic at best, and the 5R55E trans isn't going to like towing it in the slightest!! My prediction is that it wouldn't be long for this world.

I, too, go by the 80% rule when it comes to regular, long-distance towing. Around the block with an under-powere and/or ill-handling rig is one thing. Across the country on a National Lampoon Vacation type trip with the same rig would prove to be a nightmare!

My final answer: Your truck isn't the right tool for the job... There are other campers that are better suited to your particular tow vehicle, but that's probably not one of them.

There are some on this board of the mind-set that if you can hook to it, you can tow it. I'm not one of them.

-Joe

 

[Sirius33]

Thanks to all who responded. Bottom line is that we either get a lighter TT or a beefier TV.

ps: wife wondering how you know she weighs 130 lbs?

 

[gijoecam]

Thanks to all who responded. Bottom line is that we either get a lighter TT or a beefier TV.

ps: wife wondering how you know she weighs 130 lbs?

LOL!! Do you really wanna know?

Wild guess actually.... Just took a shot in the dark... If I was too high, I wasn't so high I would insult someone, and if I was too low, it makes me look like a nice guy.

-Joe

 

[Sirius33]

Joe,

Great answers to both questions! Regarding the 5,680# towing capacity. Also from the manual, the tow tables elsewhere on this site, and the Coleman Dealer who called a Ford dealership buddy after pulling some codes off the inside of the driver door frame. This is for the auto transmission, 4.0L SOHC, 3.73 axle, 4-door model. Pretty confident on the 5,680#.

With that in mind, what do you think about the smaller/lighter Niagara - GVWR 3,970# and dry weight of 3,275#. Still too much of a stretch for a 1999 XLT w/ ~145K miles?

Thanks

Frank

 

[Sirius33]

Other question:

If we got a 3,000# PUP trailer with an advertised 180# tongue weight, would I need a Class II hitch installed or can I go with the integrated bumper hitch that is rated at 3,500# and 350# tongue weight?

Seems to me I can.

Thoughts?

 

[rizzjc]

As a comparison, I tow a Shadow Cruiser, with a dry weight of 2000# with my '97 V8, and it's fine, but I didn't want to tow anything heavier on a regular basis. My PERSONAL OPINION is that you would not be happy towing 4000+ pounds with a V6 with any sort of regularity or distance. Again, personal opinion.

 

[gijoecam]

Joe,

Great answers to both questions! Regarding the 5,680# towing capacity. Also from the manual, the tow tables elsewhere on this site, and the Coleman Dealer who called a Ford dealership buddy after pulling some codes off the inside of the driver door frame. This is for the auto transmission, 4.0L SOHC, 3.73 axle, 4-door model. Pretty confident on the 5,680#.

I feel like a putz... I was looking at the wrong column (GCWR in kilograms LOL!!)... I stand corrected... Yes, the 5680 is the correct number for your vehicle, 10k GCWR.

With that in mind, what do you think about the smaller/lighter Niagara - GVWR 3,970# and dry weight of 3,275#. Still too much of a stretch for a 1999 XLT w/ ~145K miles?

Thanks

Frank

5680 is within the 80% rule... barely. From a mechanical standpoint, you'll still need a WDH, and it couldn't hurt to install an additional auxiliary trans cooler, but it's well within the manufacturer's recommended capacities for that truck.

Now, that being said, it's still not gonna like it, and you probably won't enjoy it much either. Yes, it can do it, but it's not going to be the best choice for that camper. I used to tow my boat which tipped the scales at 4650 lbs. Admittedly it had a much higher center of gravity than a popup, but in all honesty, if it had been much further than the 6 miles to the boat ramp, I probably wouldn't have done it very often. The truck had squat for giddy-up (put your foot on the floor and you can almost hear it laugh!!) and I have a 2-door with 4.10 gears in it (a couple hundred pounds lighter than yours).... The engine and trans just aren't really up to the task IMHO. The SOHC likes to rev, but hasn't got any cajones down-low where you need it to grunt it off the line.

Practically speaking, it'll do it, but it's not gonna like it.

Other question:

If we got a 3,000# PUP trailer with an advertised 180# tongue weight, would I need a Class II hitch installed or can I go with the integrated bumper hitch that is rated at 3,500# and 350# tongue weight?

Seems to me I can.

Thoughts?

In *theory* you could. However, there are a few things to consider...

The 350 lb tongue weight is going to put it at or right near the rear axle weight rating for the Ex. With your longer overhang, it'll give that weight more leverage. In general, when it comes to Explorers, 350 lbs of tongue weight comes with a recommendation of a WDH. Some trailers cannot use a WDH (and some can be modified to use them... it all depends on the trailer and hitch).

Now, there's also the issue of trailer attitude. Popups in general do not like to be towed tongue-up. It greatly affects the handling and stability. As close to level as possible is the rule of thumb. The ball mount on the bumper will likely leave the trailer VERY nose-up. A level pup is a happy pup.

Finally, there's the fridge. The fridge in a popup needs to be close to level to work in transit. If you never used the fridge in transit, then it's not an issue. My wife and I always do. (and it works great!)

A class-3 receiver is $100 or less just about anywhere, and bolts right up to the frame. It'll give you the versatility you need to be able to get the proper drop (or lift) necessary for the proper towing atitude on the camper, and should you choose to do so, give you the receiver you need to use a weight distributing hitch.

Another good resource to check out.... The towing forum over on www.popupexplorer.com is an excellent source for more info on all things popup camping. There are others over there that are going to tell you the same things I just said, and there are others that'll tell you to pull it and not worry about it. Either way, they're a good, knowledgable source of info, not just one or two people's opinions.

-Joe

 

[gijoecam]

Oh, and since nobody mentioned it yet.... Kudos for asking for some real-world advice instead of listening to a dealer. They'll tell you anything you want to hear to move a unit off the floor. Crunch the numbers and do the math BEFORE purchasing... you'll be surprised how it all adds up. If you want, load up the family and run the truck over a CAT scale at the local truck stop. For $8, it'll tell you EXACTLY how much the truck weighs by itself with the family aboard, as well as the axle weights (and how close you are) before you hook up a trailer. From there, you can determine your actual towing capacity.

If you weigh it, post the numbers here. I'd love to see them!

-Joe

 

[Sirius33]

Joe,

Many thanks. You have been extremely helpful - best advice I've received yet on these questions. Pretty good showing for a Village Idiot

 

[Sirius33]

The Denoument

OK - here is how it all wrapped up. We signed a contract on a Coleman Westgate PUP. Relevant specs include GVWR 3,000#, UVW 2,155#, tongue weight 180#. Getting a Class III receiver with sway friction and a 6" (or less) utility bar/ball.

I feel much better at this weight class and hope to pull it around with my 1999 Explorer for a few years to come.

Many thanks to all who contributed their thoughts and recommendations. They were all very much welcome and focused our decision in the right direction.

Happy camping.

 

[rizzjc]

Congrats on the new camper! Hope you enjoy it for years to come. Now here's a shameless plug for a website that you might find helpful if you're new to this whole camper thing:
http://www.lightweightcamperforum.com/
We have a 16' hard side camper that we like a lot. Everything we NEED, and nothing we don't. Size doesn't matter.

 

[joecrna]

Joe,

I only weighed mine once when loaded for a 2 week trip. Explorer with everything loaded but trailer not hooked up was 6300 lbs even. Not to confuse anyone. This truck is nowhere near stock.