Explorer & LT-metric?

[Ray Bates]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but how would performance be different with LT-metric tires than P-metric tires? I currently have the P255/70R16 Wilderness AT's on a '98 Sport, but with all 15" recalls, it's time to upgrade my 16's. It seems that Ford designed the Explorer with the P-Metric tire in mind. Although I do minimal off-roading, I like the appearance of the BFG T/A KO's. These do not come in P-Metric, but the Long Trails do. I'm looking for a tire that will be great in the snow. Both tires will likely do well, but I am concerned about putting the LT-Metric tires on and how they might effect performance, mostly in an increased tendancy to roll. I've also read of dealers refusing to put LT-Metric tires on Explorers. Has anyone talked to Ford about putting LT-Metric tires on the Explorer, two or four door? I have no problem putting on P-Metric tires if it is a wiser choice. If it is, I may lean towards the Long Trails. How about the Yokohama Geolandar A/T+? How are these overall and in the snow? Thanks.

 

[GJarrett]

LT (light truck) tires have STRONGER, not weaker, sidewalls. The BFG's have three sidetreads. So they ride rougher that a P tire will, but they are SAFER, not more dangerous, against rollovers. That P-metric memo is erroneous information and is wrong, WRONG, WRONG.

Think about it: in an emergency swerving manuever, do you want to be on top of a tire whose sidewall will get mushy and deform to the underside of the tread under stress, or do you want to be on tires with sturdy sidewalls that won't buckle under the forces of the manuever?

 

[gerry]

Gerald,

I believe Ford wants LESS traction (from the softer sidewalls) to prevent rollovers.
Softer sidewalls will deform, reducing the contact patch and therefore reducing grip and the lateral forces needed to roll the vehicle.
Same reason they won't recommend all-season highway tires; too much traction.

BTW, I noticed that this is becoming such a hot issue that http://www.tirerack.com doesn't list the Explorer anymore in their tire finder on the home page.

 

[GJarrett]

Gerry, my thought is this. For example. If I am going down a freeway and have to swerve hard to the right, I don't think having the sidewall of my left front tire collapse down under the pressure would be very safe. That would LOWER the left front while the vehicle is going to the right and sending its centrifugal force back to the left. I can very easily picture an immediate left side rollover in that situation.

Look at it another way. If you are running and make a hard right turn like running a football pass pattern, and your left ankle twists when you plant that foot to make the turn, what do you think will happen, and which way are you going to fall?

And I also disagree with the theory that it lessens traction. A weak sidewall does the same thing as airing down your tires to increase the contact over terrain, which is why you air down when you hit the trail. To get all the traction you can. The sidewall will flex and offer MORE contact patch to the ground.

I believe the P-Metric classification by Ford for the Explorer is for the same reason they tell you to run 26 psi. So that all the soccer moms they have convinced to buy this truck won't complain about the trucklike ride.

Hope that made sense. I've never done my own rollover tests (and never hope to), but this whole deal about putting passenger tires on a light truck and running them underinflated at 26 psi makes absolutley no sense whatsoever to me apart from the fact that Ford wants to improve its trucklike ride for the soccer moms.

[Edited by GJarrett on 09-21-2000 at 12:03 PM]

 

[Ray Bates]

I've looked at the manufacturer sites such as BFGoodrich, Michelin, Goodyear, etc, and they usually don't list a replacement tire in their tire lookup. This is especially true for the P255/70R16. If they do, it doesn't seem appropriate. Correct me if I am wrong, but as long as the tire size is the same, the only basic difference will be stronger sidewalls between the "P" and "LT" designations? The dimensions of a P255/70R16 and a LT255/70R16 will be the same? As I had already stated, I do minimal off-road, but still want a tire that is good off-road, great in snow and is a safe tire. Could it make a difference if the BFG T/A KO's are installed on a 2-door as opposed to a 4-door in regards to performance or safety. Also, is the BFG T/A KO as good in the snow as the BFG Long Trail T/A is supposed to be? Thanks for the excellent information.

 

[gerry]

Ray,

I'm in the same boat as you as far as wanting to replace my P255/70R16s, but not knowing which way to go. I'm also a 95% highway type, but want the snow/off-road capabilty.
As far as the differences, the LTs usually have a higher load rating and a higher max inflation pressure. I'm not sure if they have to pass all the same gov. tests that are required of "P" tires.
As I state below, I'm pretty sure an LT tire "may" increase the chance of a rollover, but what I don't know is how much more of chance, or if its so minimal that the only ones actually concerned are the lawyers.

Gerald,

I'm still thinking that Ford wants to limit traction and probably turn-in response. A softer sidewall will also cause the vehicle to react less abrubtly when a fast turn is made at high speeds, therefore it will have less forces causing it to lean. Both a higher inflation pressure and stronger sidewalls (along with a lower tire sidewall profile) would let the vehicle react more quickly and violently to heavy steering input at speed.
I don't doubt for a minute that ride considerations for the soccer moms was also high on their list of priorities, but it seems to be coming out in the testimonies that the reduced recommended tire pressure was a direct result of the threat of a rollover during the "J-Turn" test.

I'm pretty confident that I'm not going to roll my truck with LT tires on it, but I'm also a little concerned about the insurance companies et. al. blaming my choice of LTs as the cause of any accident I may get into.
And I'm really starting to think that there aren't going to be too many tire dealers willing to put anything on a Ford SUV that isn't specifically approved by Ford. Like I said in the earlier post, try to find Explorer on the Tire Rack site. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the tire chains are going to be reluctant to sell 255/70-16s until Ford puts out an approved replacement list.

 

[GJarrett]

Well, like I admitted, I don't know for sure. It's just that it doesn't make sense to me. First off, an Explorer IS a light truck. It seems logical that a light truck would need light truck rated tires.

Also, concerning the pressures, it is common knowledge that the heavier the load you carry, the higher the tire pressure you should use. My Taurus LX recommended tire pressures were 30psi (four pounds higher) for its Pmetric tires and it weighed about a ton less than an Explorer.

???Huh???

 

[rpenner54]

I have one bald tire on my Escort.

 

[Jim F]

Tire pressure

When I had by rack and pinion worked on by Ford under warranty, I received my "truck" (Explorer is a truck not an SUV) back with 32 psi in the all of tires. I noticed the truck handled differently when I was driving it home and throught it was because of the rack fix. Just out of curiousity I check the tire pressure and all 4 tires had 32psi air pressure. This was at a large Ford dealer. I guess they did not believe in the door panel pressure or they felt the lower tire pressure had caused the "internal failure" of the left rack assembly. When the truck went in, it had 28psi all around. I'm running 30 psi on Canada made non-recalled 15inch Wilderness AT's. Yes I am reluctant to drive my Explorer. I also need to pick up a load of firewood and have been putting it off for a cooler day. Anyway thought this pressure thing was strange from Ford. Do as I say not as our mechanics do?????

 

[gerry]

Jim,

When I bought mine, I got free oil changes for life from the dealer. Since day 1 (a year ago) they pump the tires up to 35# every time I bring it in. When I questioned the service manager, he just said that's what "they" recommend for all Explorers, and wouldn't elaborate. This was before the Firestone stories came out.

There's a lot of stuff on the news wires from the testimonies of Firestone blaming Ford for their lower recommended pressures causing the failures, so maybe we will get some insight soon on what was the real reason for the lower pressure is.
Ford felt so strongly about maintaining 28#, they were going to put warning stickers in every Explorer a couple of years ago, (similar to the air bag warnings on the sun visors,) telling us to keep only 28# in the tires.
Until we really know what's going on, I won't feel comfortable replacing these with LTs or any other tires not specifically approved by Ford. And since my 16" aren't on any official list (yet), Ford won't recommend any replacement brand or model tire for my size.
So do I replace my 'stones with something that may increase the chance of rolling over?

Just as an aside, I was supposed to pick up my parents and drive them 120 miles to my home for my grandson's first bithday. They cancelled last night for fear of riding in my Explorer. So I want to see this thing end as bad as anyone else.

 

[ExplorGM]

Just had to jump in...

I'd say it was the manufacture of the tires, not the psi. I've run 255/70/16s for 70k on my Explorer without any problems whatsoever. These were the Wilderness A/Ts. I've since changed to 32x11.5/16s, and then to LT285/75R16s. No problems with any of the tires. No rear sway bar for the last 15K miles with no hint of rollover. I drive pretty aggressively on the corners and have never been even close to tipping. I've tried everything from 20psi, up to 35psi with changes in ride, noise level, and cornering, but no fear of instability. The truck now has 4" of total lift and tall tires as well. I've run 36" tires on my jeeps, IH Scouts, and Harvester,Isuzu P/U and 35" tires on my Chevy Stepside. They were all lifted. None have given me the impression that they were going to go over on the street. Any vehicle may roll under dramatic emergency conditions with high G forces and an impact of a curb or other obstacle. Even Formula 1 cars that are 1" off the ground roll and or get airborne!
Rick

 

[f-64]

The right tire for explorers

Ray;
This is my experience. I had been looking for along time for a good replacement tire also. I wanted something that would look good, roll quit on the hiway and yet have a full six ply tread and 3 ply side wall for those times that I get off road. I use my 4x4 as a daily driver and also take a couple photo expeditions in the back country each year and this year in Colorado I blew out a Bridgestone Duller H/T 2ply four ply rating.
Anyway I have found my answer at Big O Tires. I had them put on a set of Big O Big Foot a/t dual grooves. They are 30x9.5x15 6ply and it is amazing how much insulation you feel between you and the road surface yet I still have crisp control of the road.
Check them out.
Bob

 

[Ray Bates]

Bob, I would definitely check out the Big O tires, but I don't think they are available here in the northeast. I did check out their web site though. I'll probably look into Cooper tires, because I can get them just around the corner. Possibly the BFG T/A KO's from the same place. I opened up a thread for Cooper & Dean tires, but had no response.

 

[bluescat]

CR again

Ray; You've probably already made up your mind but if not...Consumer Reports just came out with a new issue that recommends tires for the Explorer, both in A/T and All Season. BTW, the BFG LongTrail still comes out on top for it's classification.

 

[Tom Wilk]

My $.02: I think the BFG AT KO tires will work well in the snow, they look like a snow tire. I'm not a big fan of all season tires myself, as they are essentially a compromise between summer and winter tires. True snow tires have a softer tread compound and tend to wear much faster than other types of tires, but they also have an aggressive tread pattern. A lot of all season tires don't have the luggy tread. The BFG AT's have the agressive tread, but not the soft rubber compound.

I put my BFG AT tires (LT265-75/R16) on before the Firestone problem flaired up. I had heard that BFG was going to come out with the 255-70/16 size in the future, but I don't know if they are available yet. If you want to keep the stock size, you are a bit limited as to what brands are out there. If anybody refuses to put a different brand on, go somewhere else or ask them if they will mount them on the rims if you take them off the car.

As far as rollover potential, in general the taller you go, the greater the propensity to roll. But, that in itself doesn't make the vehicle unstable. Most if not all rollovers come under extreme circumstances where the vehicle gets skidding sideways then "trips" over something, be it a pothole, a curb, or whatever. If you are going fast enough and get sideways, you could roll as well even on smooth ground. I saw a low, flat Buick roll over once so anything can do it. That being said, I've taken my Explorer around some pretty fast turns without it feeling unstable. In fact, it feels much more stable with the BFG's on it than it did with the Firestones which were pretty mushy. Incidentally, I sit about 3" higher than stock.

If you really want to decrease the propensity to roll, you can always get some smaller diameter tires which will lower your center of gravity. A 255-60 tire will drop you down a bit, but you won't have as good a grip with the short fat tires in the snow as you would otherwise.

I have found that tire dealers often pump the tires up to 35 psi. I'm not sure why they do this, but I've had to lower mine back to the 30 that I use several times. Maybe their air system is set at 35 and they just pump them up that way. Tire pressure is always checked when they do an alignment (or at least it should be) so you can expect them to change it whenever you have that done.

 

[bluescat]

J turns

That's the problem for me. My 2001 came with 16's and so I'm thinking about reducing the sidewall radius so it will lower the center of gravity and make for better emergency maneuvers. Then I read the reason Ford lowered the pressure in the tires to 26 psi (my '94 Navajo with 15's) was because they wanted that mushy tire to give way and scrape across the road surface instead of biting in and turning in too fast for the higher center of gravity, causing a potential rollover. I know there's a tradeoff somewhere between the taller tire=more tipsy versus the lower profile=dig in and roll the truck train of thought. Everyone has their own perspective. The bottom line is that Ford is adamant about not using these All Seaon tires because of increased roll over risk and you know that Ford did the testing and have said that's why they lowered the pressure. Many people have the BFG's KO's and I haven;t seen one person complain in all of the reads I've read. It's lugs will give you much better traction than the BFG Radial Long Trails. If you go to the customer survey for the Long Trail at Tirerack.com you'll actually read complaints from a few people about it's snow capabilities. Consumer reports like the Bridgestone and Yokohama tires but they said the BFG Long Trail was the best in the bunch for the snow!!! Go figure.

 

[matt98sport]

i don't see any problem with it? i have run Signet Radial A/T LT tires for almost 65000 km's now and i have had my truck up to 160km/h on a privately owned roadway, im still alive? also i like to corner hard. the one thing i don't like is the rear axle over washboard bumps at higher than normal speeds. that can get a little squirly. oh by the way , i run 35psi in them at all times, and they are limited to only 80psi max pressure. 10ply treads, havent got a single flat yet! very good tires IMHO. great wear too. i dont notice too much rolling but if ford says so, i guess it must be true....

 

[MountaineerGreen]

Umm, I don't know how to say this, but this is a 7, almost 8 year old thread.

Good grief that's alot of digging.