HPFP High Pressure Fuel Pump and tuning

[midnightsun]

So im told and keep reading that the HPFP is our problem with getting fuel to the engine to make more power.

If i read things right as i learn about HPFP the flow rate increases as RPM increase because the cam lobe can open and close the HPFP piston faster. This means fuel supply is consistently increased as RPM increases.

So why can a f150 blow away our explorer ecoboost on the dyno?
Some numbers are outrageous. 526 Torque and 408 HP on 93 fuel?
http://www.morepowertuning.com/2015-f150-ecoboost-tune-descriptions

Regardless of the dyno charts i see they all seem to taper off at 5K except FullRace charts with the upgraded Compressor wheels.
http://www.full-race.com/store/ecob...-5l-stock-replacement-twin-turbo-upgrade.html Theirs keeps climbing as the engine turns faster. 475WHP
This follows what i've read about the HPFP.
https://www.goapr.com/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html

It would seem the turbo Compress wheel itself is having a drastic effect on the amount of air our little turbos can compress.

Question = why can the f150 ecoboost supply more fuel then our ecoboost? (if it really can)
Question = why is the current turbo compressor wheel so inefficient vs the new?

100hp up top is a huge difference.

Question = why aren't tuners increasing the engine RPM if fuel can continue to keep up?

Is this from the valve springs being weak at higher RPM and reaching float?

 

[midnightsun]

This post is more of a place marker for myself really.

Larger injectors that seem to fit the 2011 - 2015 SHO.
http://www.deatschwerks.com/product.../taurus-sho/2011-15/ecoboost-injectors-detail

Not sure what the larger injectors will have on the supply of fuel if the HPFP is the restriction point.

 

[Livernois]

We have tested this for years. The ~5% additional spray and atomization means nothing. You cannot effectively upgrade the fueling system without addressing the cam driven metering system.

As for the F150 comparo, the F150 is a completely different animal. Different block, heads and turbos!

 

[midnightsun]

The reason the f150 it seems can supply more fuel is the cam lobe activating the HPFP has 4 bumps compared to the Explorers 3.
If this is true I wonder if the cam can be replaced with the f150s. If not a weld and reshape for the explorer cam could convert the lobe to a 4 bump design.

Replacing the explorer system with a system that doesn't rely on engine speed such as a diesel style High Pressure common rail would be ideal. These systems can supply way more fuel while still being computer controlled direct injection.

 

[midnightsun]

A simpler option. Run Auxiliary fuel injectors to supplement fuel.

Not sure this will fit as supplied but the example helps solve the problem of supplying fuel to the engine without replacing engine internals or running METH at least until octane is actually needed.

https://www.maperformance.com/products/ap-auxiliary-fuel-system-2015-ecoboost-mustang-ebm-aux-fs

Video

 

[midnightsun]

Even better then a throttle body style injection system would be a solution that injects direct into the intake runners. This system usually includes a spacer that sits between the intake manifold and the engine block. Another option to a spacer, being the stock Intake manifold is only $300, a system could be adapted.

I find it disheartening of all the performance companies on the market none have provided any of these solutions.

 

[Livernois]

We have actually explored (no pun intended) all of these things years ago. There is research and development that we do privately and for other companies that never sees the light of day. Just because we do not talk about it on the forums does not mean that we have not done it.

There is no way to cam swap the F150 cam. The cam itself is not the only limiting factor for fuel delivery.
TB and/or manifold spacers are fruitless as volume is not an issue.
Aux fuel or aux railing systems are not for a street car. What happens if there is a failure? There is no way for your ECM to react quickly enough.

 

[midnightsun]

So your telling me a drop in fuel pressure via a pressure sensor on the AUX fuel rail cant tell the ECM that the Aux injectors / fuel system is in trouble? The ford fuel rail has a pressure sensor that sends a value to the ECM.

a picture of said sensor.

These Ecoboost engines also have a very sensitive knock sensor. You wrote "There is no way for your ECM to react quickly enough". Then this is true for the stock system as well. But really thats not actually how engines work. They just don't explode from sudden loss of fuel on a single revolution. Pre ignition / severe detonation would need to occur. Super lean or super rich would have taken place well before. The ECM's processor 'IS' fast enough. Its way faster then an engine.

So a hackers solution - A way to trick the ECM from the aux pressure sensor if it was in trouble would be to send the programmed low pressure value of the stock fuel pressure sensor. I'm guessing the ECM would retard the timing and go into safe mode trying to detect knock. To test what the engine does just unplug the stock fuel pressure sensor and capture the logs.
.
Also above i never said the TB / manifold spacer was to increase 'AIR' volume as you imply. The TB / manifold spacers houses the Aux injectors and fuel rails of these different Aux systems. The purpose as you know is to increase the volume of 'fuel' the engine receives. Why cant this be run on a "street' car? Its honestly no different then a NON direct injection engine at that point.

 

[midnightsun]

To add, a manifold injection system...as long as the system doesn't have the tuners name all over it, it could be stealth. A guy changing your oil or servicing the car (even with the sound dampening engine cover removed) could totally miss it if done right.

2nd fuel pressure sensor (lower pressure) possibly near the gas tank.
http://www.carid.com/images/motorcraft/fuel-delivery/fuel-injection-pressure-sensor.jpg

http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/RenderIllustration.ashx?id=357541875&f=3&n=EB5Z9J279B

 

[midnightsun]

Interesting, it seems some have found that added fuel pressure from the tank can push more fuel through the HPFP.
In Ford racing motors they use two HPFPs. One on each side of the engine.

Some are modifying stock cams.
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com

 

[raceuv]

if livernois hasnt produced it for the masses there are reasons. also i have wondered about adding a shim between the cam follower and hpfp like some have done before cams where available for the new lt1 engines. but i am not destroying my explorer to test a theory. the dual hpfp is for the gt.

 

[midnightsun]

Livernois came out with a higher flowing HPFP which is amazing and they should be commended.

40% more fuel = Livernois Motorsports
60% more fuel = Livernois Motorsports

 

[ecoboost_xsport]

Livernois came out with a higher flowing HPFP which is amazing and they should be commended.

40% more fuel = Livernois Motorsports
60% more fuel = Livernois Motorsports

Absolutely don't touch their crap!!!!!!! Those have been around for a number of years already, btw...

What you want are XDI pumps, they have an XDI35, XDI Evo, and XDI60.

XDI High Pressure Fuel Pumps Archives - Xtreme-Di

www.xtreme-di.com

STAY.FAR.AWAY.FROM.LIVERNOIS.....

 

[ecoboost_xsport]

Absolutely don't touch their crap!!!!!!!

What you want are XDI pumps, they have an XDI35, XDI Evo, and XDI60

STAY.FAR.AWAY.FROM.LIVERNOIS.....

And if you get the big boy pump, the 60, you'll need to upgrade to at least the DW300c LPFP to feed it....the LPFP is the weak point on this platform.