lug nuts stuck on front tires..

[explorerford1994]

i need to get the lug nuts off the front tires to change tires and check the auto hubs.. tried impact gun and they didnt budge.. any suggestions? thanks

 

[corkey]

get a breaker bar , but be careful the wheel studs can break, ,

 

[Blee1099]

They are probably cross threaded if a impact gun didn't remove them. Best bet is to snap em off, replace the studs & the lug nuts

 

[Beastb15]

They are probably cross threaded if a impact gun didn't remove them. Best bet is to snap em off, replace the studs & the lug nuts

This. Had to do the same thing on my friends Ranger once.

 

[jl102284]

If you dont have a long breaker bar, slide your lug nut wrench into a piece of black pipe a couple feet long and use that. You can maybe try heating the lug nuts with a can of map gas first.

 

[Joe Dirt]

Take it to a tire shop. If they break something, they will have parts to fix them, or can get them. Breaking them at home may strand you, depending on your car situation. I've done that twice, been charged nothing either time... Easier than farting around with them, at least for me... I don't have a lot of accessory stuff/tools in the garage like torches. I'd like them, but I'd burn the house down.

 

[Jager]

just use a wrench and jump on it

 

[FIND]

Your impact gun is probably just kinda weak..... Plus the lugnuts tend to get stuck over time.

My dad's junk impact gun.... I can put a wheel on with that gun, and even with his compressor full, that gun can almost never break lugnuts loose. He has a nice big 7.5 horse compressor, just his Craftsman and his off-brand gun sucks.

Use a breaker bar or tire iron. Either that, or go to your local mechanic and ask them to take them off and then put the lugnuts back on at the correct torque with some anti-seize lubricant. Like corkey said though.... careful, wheel studs can break off, but don't worry, they are easy enough to replace.

 

[explorerford1994]

yea thats what i am gonna try. i have always had luck with a good cheater bar... i took it to goodyear tire shop to get tires and the're impact wouldn't get them off so i am gonna do the cheater bar trick... thanks everyone for the replys

 

[Tony H]

Some Impact guns are very weak.. Sears cheapy guns aren't worth the metal they are made with. If you add an Extention on any Gun it will render it almost useless as the Extension twists. (The theory behind the Torques Sticks used on impact guns to get teh correct torque on lugs no matter how strong the gun is).

 

[OneLever]

i took it to goodyear tire shop to get tires and the're impact wouldn't get them off

They gave up on selling you new tires because they couldn't get them off? Did they try a breaker bar?

correct torque with some anti-seize lubricant

I would not use anti-seize on lug nuts. It improves the chance of over torquing them and the possibility of them vibrating loose.

 

[FIND]

I would not use anti-seize on lug nuts. It improves the chance of over torquing them and the possibility of them vibrating loose.

... I've been using anti-seize when installing wheels for 14 years now... haven't had a single problem yet. If anything, anti-seize lubricant makes it more likely you will torque them to the proper torque, since without it, the nut can hit a spot in the threads with a lot of friction and seem torqued when they aren't meeting the resistance from only the wheel face. That is why they say to use anti-seize in any shop.... Just like lubricating head bolts or anything else like that before you torque them down.

As long as the lugnuts are torqued properly, they will not vibrate loose. Improperly torqued lugnuts, such as ones that meet high friction spots in threads and are subsequently not applying enough pressure against the wheel face are where you have a problem with them vibrating off.

As far as over-torquing goes....well, if you are going to over-torque a nut, you are gonna do it. If you don't have the proper feel for how much torque you are putting on a wrench or bar, then you should use a torque wrench whenever possible.

 

[OneLever]

I am not a mechanical engineer, but I am familiar with their trade. The basis of my statement was as follows:

anti-seize lubricant makes it more likely you will torque them to the proper torque

Adding a lubricant changes the kinetic coefficient of friction between the bolt threads and hole threads. Decreasing the friction allows the threads to be deformed slightly more before giving the specified torque. I believe the torque specification is supposed to be read with the threads dry and the fastener still moving.

without it, the nut can hit a spot in the threads with a lot of friction and seem torqued when they aren't meeting the resistance from only the wheel face.

I hand thread old fasteners back into their holes when I take them off to check for rough spots like this. If I find it is binding too much I use a re-threading die to chase the bolt threads. Then I test again for binding. If it is still present I use a re-threading tap to chase the hole's threads. I clean the threads out with electrical parts cleaner and compressed air after chasing them to remove the cutting oil. Here is a thread where I discussed that.

As long as the lugnuts are torqued properly, they will not vibrate loose.

That is the key point.

This sort of civilized debate is why I like this forum. You can be corrected or learn things without starting flame wars. Although I will admit a lot of these finer points probably aren't so important in shade tree maintenance.

 

[arco777]

As a side note, a good quality impact socket (they're usually black, heat treated steel) is a good investment. Cheap stainless sockets can spread and crack when removing over-torqued lugs and over long term use. Having a socket round off the lug nut or crack while you have all your weight on the breaker bar (smashing your knuckles into the ground) really is no fun.

My NAPA 3/4" impact deep socket is guaranteed for life and fits all three of my cars' lugs. I've never owned a pneumatic impact wrench and don't ever plan to but I love this socket for torque wrench and general use. P/N NTPD624

Just a suggestion Also when you put your lugs back on, spec is usually 100-110 ft/lbs on the Explorer.

 

[FIND]

Adding a lubricant changes the kinetic coefficient of friction between the bolt threads and hole threads. Decreasing the friction allows the threads to be deformed slightly more before giving the specified torque. I believe the torque specification is supposed to be read with the threads dry and the fastener still moving.

The torque the lugnuts needs to be at is determined independently of the friction of the threads. It is supposed to be entirely the pressure between the nut on the threads and the surface that it is holding. OEMs do measure torque specifications with the fastener still moving, but dry is not the appropriate term.... OEMs use lubricated or coated parts too... The wheel studs on vehicles that have come straight from the manufacturer even have coatings on them to decrease friction and inhibit corrosion (though most aftermarket replacements only come with corrosion inhibitors like a galvanized coating).

There are really 2 reasons too why mechanics don't run dies on threads to clean them every time they change tires too. 1: it is time consuming, and wrenching is a volume business. If you don't have volume you don't have business. 2: it is removing material from the studs, and this will have a negative effect in the long run since it changes the characteristics of the stud as well as removes any coatings the stud has to reduce corrosion. Also, I should note that the primary purpose of anti-seize is to minimize chemical reaction between the dissimilar metals and to add all those nice sharp metal particles to help cut any "crud" off the threads, as a lubricant, its performance is pretty low.

by the way, I agree. This board is better for civilized debate than most. I'll agree with another thing too, you and I tend to get so far into the finer points of some of these things to ever have any application for the shade tree mechanic..... heck, we probably go further sometimes than will ever be necessary for anyone.

 

[OneLever]

To the original poster: Given the information you have provided I think that either.

1. You are not applying enough force to break the lug nuts free and need a good breaker bar with a six point socket.

2. The last person who put the lug nut on cross threaded it and the stud will probably have to be replaced. Which is a bit more in depth. Be aware this would leave you without a truck to drive until the stud is replaced.


//Unrelated conversation below.

The torque the lugnuts needs to be at is determined independently of the friction of the threads. It is supposed to be entirely the pressure between the nut on the threads and the surface that it is holding.

I will have to disagree with this. While the torque rating of the fastener depends on how large it is and what materials it is made of. The pressure between a bolt head and mating surface is provided by the bolt threads. If you were to zoom in on them at a microscopic scale you would see that the more you torque the bolt the greater the threads deform. Much like if I were to hold one end of a metal rod in a vise, and push down on the opposite end. The reaction of the rod is to provide an upward force on my hand, but at some point the strength of the metal is overcome and the rod (thread) breaks.

Without friction the bolt would simply loosen itself when you let go. The friction force between two surfaces is directly proportional to the perpendicular force between them and the coefficient of friction. Even if anti-seize is not primarily a lubricant I am nearly certain it does have lubricating qualities. A lubricant lowers the coefficient of friction.

2: it is removing material from the studs, and this will have a negative effect in the long run

I absolutely agree with this statement. Which is why I try to avoid using tap & die's to clean threads unless necessary. Even then I use re-threading sets which have more clearance built into their tolerances to prevent removing new metal.

I should note that the primary purpose of anti-seize is to minimize chemical reaction between the dissimilar metals

I should have realized this. Thank you for pointing it out.

we probably go further sometimes than will ever be necessary for anyone.

Which is why I take three times longer than a regular person when I work on the truck. I get so caught up in looking at things and analyzing them.

 

[FIND]

//Unrelated conversation below.

I will have to disagree with this. While the torque rating of the fastener depends on how large it is and what materials it is made of. The pressure between a bolt head and mating surface is provided by the bolt threads. If you were to zoom in on them at a microscopic scale you would see that the more you torque the bolt the greater the threads deform. Much like if I were to hold one end of a metal rod in a vise, and push down on the opposite end. The reaction of the rod is to provide an upward force on my hand, but at some point the strength of the metal is overcome and the rod (thread) breaks.

Without friction the bolt would simply loosen itself when you let go. The friction force between two surfaces is directly proportional to the perpendicular force between them and the coefficient of friction. Even if anti-seize is not primarily a lubricant I am nearly certain it does have lubricating qualities. A lubricant lowers the coefficient of friction.

well, you are kinda saying the same thing I was saying with the first paragraph there, but, with lugnuts, your calculations for friction are in a slightly different direction because of the tapered ends. This kind of throws off some of that stuff. This means you have more surfaces that you have to calculate friction against, and the force distribution is different on the stud. Also, you have to calculate the spring rate of the surface it is mounted against and that of the threads.

Either way, you are looking to stretch or deform the threads ever so slightly when torquing a bolt, so that is what generates the friction. The coefficient of friction of the actual surface does not matter as much because this force multiplies the friction by so many times that small changes in surface friction don't really matter.

Still, while anti-seize does have lubricating qualities, you still generally want that low friction when torquing things. Like I said before, you oil head bolts before you install them.... The holding force is coming from the threads, but it is because of the pressure on the threads, not so much slight changes in the coefficient of friction of the surface.

I mean, when it all boils down to it, you are applying a ton of force to a very small surface and you are talking about relatively small changes in the friction coefficient. It would be like saying that a lug nut on a new OEM wheel stud has more chance of untorquing and falling off than on an old rusted wheel stud after you install new nuts, when in fact, the opposite is true.

 

[beauboy]

Wow! I've never before read so many inputs from engineers on a fairly simple matter before. But from the Joe-blo Explorer owner's point of view, let me add my two cents:

Soak your lugs down with PB Blaster. Let it sit overnight. Apply again and let sit for an hour, then try to get them off with either a 500-lb impact wrench ($50-$60 at Lowes) or a long cheater bar.

If your studs break, don't sweat it. Replacement lugs are cheap and easy to replace.

Not only have I owned my 91 Ex for almost 20 years now, but I also own a 69 VW Beetle. I have done virtually all the work on both of them myself since I've owned them. Yes, I've broken studs. Yes, I use PB Blaster all the time. No, I've never had a lug even remotely try to work itself off. I have no idea what an anti-sieze lubricant does to the metalurgical properties. I just know it works.

Best of luck.