Newby Transmission Help

[martinfam5]

Was told the planetaries prematurely wear from lack of lubrication, related to valve body problems. Also told that given they are near the final output they see the most stress especially under TCC lockup. Any bearing bushing wear will manifest itself in chatter or shudder under loads such as hills etc.
Have not tried with OD locked out, but shudder disappears immediately whens trans downshifts out of OD. Will try tomorrow. Thanks again.

 

[Glacier991]

I'm going to punt this one to Brain.... but the valve body hydraulic circuits exhaust the signal oil from the body itself as best I know.... and their circuits do not comprise any part of a lube circuit... (best I know). While FORD HAS had some problems related to parts lubrication in some of their transmissions (the AXOD-E comes to mind prominently - they even added lube tubes to it beyond the original design to carry oil) I am totally unaware that the A4LD or 4R or 5R have a similar problem (well there were some center support lubrication issues that were resolved in the A4LD in the early 90's I believe) but I am completely unaware of any OD planetary or rear planetary lubrication issues.... [and that said I am always learning more and more.... so... Brain? Opera House? SteveVB? Mr. Shorty? Eneurb? Am I missing something here?]

 

[Glacier991]

HOLD EVERYTHING. I just did some research and I am not able to find such a thing as Dexron V. Exxon made it briefly and it was a failure. Now I probably am wrong, but go to the place that flushed your trannie and demand to see one of the containers of Dexron V of the type they used. If it is Exxon demand they reflush and use Mercon. THAT IS ALL FORD RECOMMENDS !

Dexron III and Mercon III are interchangeable.... Mercon V, so far as I can find, has NO substitute, except synthetics. CHECK THIS OUT. (and remember I may be wrong, but it all fits too perfectly).

 

[martinfam5]

Thanks again will drive rig over to mechanic and check on this. Also plan on stoping at the Ford Dealer in regards to the 00M12 recall issue.

Will post results later.

 

[martinfam5]

Glacier and all, confirmed with the mechanic it was Mercon V, he will show me the reamining quarts from the case he purchased to do the rig. Unless he is lying it appears we have the right stuff. I actaully had hoped he may have messed up and put in Dexron or Mercon III or somtheing that would explain (in relativley cheap repair terms) the shudder. He still insists it could be an engine misfire (something else that some threads on this forum have exposed as a possible cause). I have convinced him to go for test drive with me later this afternoon. BTW, I could NOT get it to shudder at any throttle position/RPM?Speed when the tranny is switched out of OD. Given previous responses would a TCCC solenoid test or replacemnt be the most cost effective next step? Assuming I can do the solenoid change myself vs the cost of having ford check the solenoid with the rarley used circuit/control tester (if they even have one)? One of my employees husband has worked for several transmission repair shops and his intial diganosis was right on with Galcier and others, meaning start simple with fluid, filter etc then progress to the morte complicated and costly items, i.e solenoids, valve body, TC and beyond. He will help me do the solenoid swap or do it for what seems cheap in his own race shop (gotta love those drag race guys!) More later. Perhaps I should re-title this thread from "Newby" to "Oldby" Transmission help (LOL)

 

[martinfam5]

Here is the latest. Test drive with mechanic confirmed that it was not "engine misfire". As soon as he heard and felt the shudder he said it was definitely transmission. Told me he does not do alot of internal trans stuff so had me stop at another mechanic he knows who does transmission rebuilds. His test drive confirmed in his opinion the following:
1. Torque converter clutch is slipping, said definitely not a solenoid but TCCC. He also said while you can "drive through" the TCC slip by judicious throttle control it is definatley TCC. (this would confirm original code PO 741) He said TCC is also slipping as trans shifts in and out of OD as he confirmed by watching RPM on up/down shifts. Said all other shifts seemed normal and he doubts the issue of fried 2nd/overdrive band(s). He sounds like he knows what he is talking about as he gave me a lot of the same information I have learned off of this website along with the whole background on the origin of the 5r55e trans (old c-3) etc etc.

Gave me a quote of $670.00 to replace TCC, $225 for reman TC rest is labor and gaskets etc. Also said that when he does these transmissions that he modifies the oil/fluid return line hole related to the front pump to increase fluid transfer?? He said factoiry hole is just slightly bigger than pencil lead and he "augers" the hole out to bigger diameter to better facilitate fluid transfer/return in this area. Also makes sure he reoplaces the pump bushing seal which he said is critical for preventing further TCC failure in these transmissions.

The Dealer we got the rig from has already split the cost for the fluid/filter service ($100.00 each) and he is willing to pay $200.00 towards the TC replacment even though we did not get the used car warranty.

Question is, is this a fair price for the work? Should I still try the TC solenoid first although both mechanics state the trans would not shift in/out of OD like it does if it was solenoid. Also I think I can feel a slight shudder out of OD at low almost lug RPM, which to me would also say bad TC. In my previous post another reputable mecahnic who has worked on transmission prfessionaly for years including racing trans (and has no financial interest other thant I am his wife's boss) told me it was most likely TCC. He said if the old fluid was or the new fluid gets "fried", it is definitely TC slippage.

But wait there is some good news...thanks to the information on other threads in this website, the local Ford Dealer is going to perform the 00m12 recall for intake and cam chain tesnsioners absolutley free this Thursday. He confirmed that the recall was extended for up to 6 years from purchase or 72K miles. This rig was purchased 10/14/99 (OK) and has 69,500 miles (also ok). Told him (Service Manager) the symptons (cold start idle cycle and marbles rattling on metal sound) he plugged VIN and mileage into his computer and viola...free recall work! No hassles or haggling, just mentioned to him that I had heard from a "buddy" (that would be all of you on this great forum) about the recall and wanted to make sure it had been done on the rig which apprently it has not. Given my initial pre-purchase assement of "timing chain rattle" I felt somewhat vindicated about this issue, again thanks to Serious Explorations!

That alone was enough to make my day and restore some faith in the "Blue Oval".

Please let me know your collective thoughts/wisdom on the TC replacement, and I will keep you posted even beyond this issue. Assuming this TC replacment gets done and cures the problem I am going to be looking at preventing this problem in our other ford products - 2001 Excursion (30,000 miles) and 2000 Powerstroke (60,000 miles - towing)! The remote filter option and redneck fluid change with filter are going to be standard protocol in this Ford camp in the immediate future!

martinfam5

 

[Glacier991]

well.... I need some time to think on this one.... I believe your new guy is honest and trying his best (as opposed to some others I have heard about on here).... but I still have some issues I need to process.... I still am thinking something is being missed.... the OD on/off "cure" does not fit the TCC solely issue in my mind.... EPC, TCC and other shift solenoids come into play here... you willing to invest another $40 to $50 in a trans pressure gauge? (by the time we get done YOU can give advice on this trannie). His prices are not on the low side....not horribly unreasonable either.... he has a family to feed....yet... I am still uncomfortable with this one.... seems I am alone trying to troubleshoot this ... (ahem)....don't be in a big hurry to spend $1000. +


[side note: Brain, remember our discussion of modulation of the TCC using the EPC and varying the voltage???? Hmmmm]

 

[martinfam5]

Thanks Glacier, FYI - I watched him right up the quote, he consulted what appeared to be a blue Ford "sevice manual' that showed the amount of time necessary to do the work. Can't say for sure but it looked lie 6.5 hours. He then called someone for the quote on the TC, $225.00 which is similar to my employee's husbands quote, who most recently worked for AAMCO and as the crew Chief for the Top Alcohol race team sponsored by the multi-shop owner. Based on your concern, I may check at the ford dealer
thursday to see if they have the tester and can test the solenoid, after all whats antoher 5 -10 minutes when "Mother Ford" is paying the mechanic's time on the recall work?

What's the gig with the pressure gauge?

Anybody else out there willing to "weigh in" on this issue and help take some of the pressure off of Glacier? All replies greatly appreciated. Thanks for the vote of confidence Glacier, but to quote somebody unkown, "I know just about enough to be dangerous!", although that has not stopped me from sticking my .02 worth into other posts.

Martinfam5

 

[Glacier991]

Yeah I wasn't flamin em for the price quote.... Now the pressure gauge issue.... (it is kinda like the Trans Tester issue - no one wants to do it, yet it CAN provide useful info....) And, not trying to be mysterious with my sidebar to Brain... so let me try and explain... not that you cannot understand, just that I may not explain good enough....

deep breath.... here goes...

The EP solenoid provides the engineers with the ability to "adjust" the pressure by varying the voltage to it.... or maybe more appropriately changing the pulse width of the voltage signal.
So certain gears get certain pressures.... we have seen this is a solenoid that can cause problems. In the A4LD we had one line tap.... one pressure gauge test port.. in the 5R we have more. I ask myself why does OD cause the TCC lockup pressure to be too little.... causing "lockup wanna be" shudder? I am puzzled, yet think the EPC and TCC solenoids are involved.... a pressure test might shed SOME light on this.... THAT is why I ask...

Brain and I agree the modulation (constant adjustment of pressure to affect "feel" on the TCC lockup or other shifts), is BS and an accident waiting to happen, if is what it is... anyway it is real. Makes the EPC and TCC more and more important....

so there ya have it. Lotsa help eh ?

 

[martinfam5]

Glacier good job on very technical stuff. I understood most of it except for the last part regarding the modualtion stuff. Did you mean to refer to the mechnics comment on the ability to "drive through" the shudder? If so let me clarify. What he was pointing out was that if you get the trans to shift sooner than later out of OD (TCC lockup) you can almost completely avoid the shudder and TCC slippage. This is not practical nor safe and he is no way implying it as a fix. He was rather just in his mind confirming a TCC problem. If this is not what your were referring to than igonore this portion of my reply and if you could try to help me understand better this modualtion stuff. The trans mechanic did say that this transmission uses some for non solid lockup unlike other previous trans did. I cannot remember the technical term he used but it did have to do with some sort of variable modulation that only allows like 95- 98% lock up to improve driveability but then agin it is late and I may be blending this information from another thread? Head is swimming a little now with the technical stuff.

Getting back to the solenoid issue, I do understand how the electrical variance or lack and fluctuation thereof can affect the solenoid and pressure all related to amount of opening etc etc in a hydraulic system. There are several posts on this site tying trans codes and suspected malfunctions to voltage issues. (God knows we are aware of voltage issues and computers, especially on Dodge Turbo cars, right Sean! lol). How would one go about doing the pressure test? Would you connect the pressure gauge to the cooler lines or is this something that would require pan removal and pressurization via some sort of a pump etc. I have access to a compression tester (thanks to our Dodge adventures) but assume the pressures inside a hydraulic transmission would far exceed its capacity.

Thanks for all your time in trying to "de-mystify" the much maligned and almost certainly taken for granted automatic transmission!!

The information available on this forum from guys like you is invaluable as well as "edutaining' for us inquiring minds! In spite of the prospect of spending more unplanned for bucks on the Ex, this forum has made this experience almost enjoyable! The cost to obtain this information without the forum would be staggering and beyond the reach of mere mortals!

Martinfam5

 

[Glacier991]

The 5R55 has 2 pressure taps (plugs in the trannie you can remove to install a pressure gauge) one is clled line pressure tap, and one is called EPC pressure control tap. SO with a gauge you can check either.... the gauge needs to be 0-300 PSI. (damn wish you were closer to Sacramento). With a gauge you can see what the pressures are doing (most trans gauges have LONG hoses so you can watch em inside the cabin as you drive). I still fail to see how OD affects TCC lockup (probably stupid). I am practically ready to ship you my Rotunda Trans tester and the pages from the manual to use to find out what is UP with that... very frustrating.

The "drive through" I cannot explain what he means. he is probably way smarter than me.

Modulation is the idea of regulating how fast the TCC locks up for "feel". A sloppy wet slippery engagement between gears is what most people like.... a "proper" good solid engagement in shifts would be considered by most to be "harsh". FORD has apparently worked it out to the TCC can provide the "squish" people like in shifts and still lock up the clutch packs, is all I can think. TCC Modulation (God save us). Recipe for disaster some think. But then when you can hang it up at 70,000 miles or less (mfgr warranty) who cares if the trans goes 200K?

Do not be in a big hurry to spend $1000 plus .. yet, please ?

 

[Glacier991]

Maybe I should add TCC lockup and OD are 2 separate things. TCC lockup occurs earlier now in electronic trannies... makes the power flow directly into the transmission without any bufferring....OD is another matter.... they are not one and the same. Hence my confusion why one affects the other. (still hollerring for help here)

 

[martinfam5]

Yeah, sounds good. Let's not get hung up on the "drive through" comment. Like I said, I Think he was just verbalizing what he was experiencing in driving the rig. Appreciate the offer on the tester, I would be willing to pay UPS with my personal guarantee to return it to you (would also pledge my "first born male child" but he is way too expensive with cars, college and all - L.O.L.) if you think it could save us some bucks. Sacramento is about 7+ hours from little ole Sweet Home. Haven't been that far south since last March on our family trip the famous Glamis sand dunes for some ultimate ATV sand dune action. I will try and locate a trans pressure tester here locally, doesn't sound like that special of a tool, except for the fittings are they special thread or standard npt 1/4 or 3/8?. Maybe even Auto Zone has a loaner? The only snag from our end is the clock ticking down on the need to get the rig road ready for Sean, and hopefully bring some clsoure to the issue of the trans and get my powerstroke diesel back for the upcoming camping/boating/atv season! Other than that if a little time another week or so and some relatively cheap testing can save us some big bucks I am all over that. Again will see if I can sweet talk the Ford Dealership into the solenoid test. Can't hurt to ask, that is if they have the right tester!

BTW the ex-AAMCO guy/Drag Race Crew Chief offered to help me change solenoid and even T.C. if necessary but cannot do until later this month (2-15).

Also to clarify the mechanic quote for the entire TC replacment is $675.00 including all parts and labor.

CMartin aka MartinFam5

 

[martinfam5]

Need to hit the rack for tonight, left work early to get the Ford recall and mechanic test drive done, so need to be in ealry tomorrow to get caught up. Will check for posts/replies bright and early.

cmartin

 

[Brain]

I apologize for not seeing this thread earlier (Glacier contacted me last night), but I've been so busy with some contracts that I've only been checking the forums for private messages. That said....your posting of the codes is a great help in helping you.

Mercon V (usually a synthetic blend) is the right stuff....Mercon/Dextron III isn't. Even the Mobil 1 full synthetic stuff isn't right - but their synthetic blend is. It gets a little confusing, but it sounds like you have the right stuff in your tranny.

Now on to your problems. It seems that two DTCs (diagnostic trouble codes) were set. One indicates that the TCC is slipping and the other is the fourth gear ratio is out of range (incorrect gear ratio). A slipping TCC by itself shouldn't set the 4th gear ratio code because the input (which is used to calculate the input/output ratio) is measured after the TC, which in a nutshell means that the TCC could slip all day long and not set the '4th gear ratio incorrect' code. That code can only be set by having either the forward clutch, reverse/high clutch, or overdrive one-way (sprag, which doesn't use hydraulic pressure) clutch slip. Those are the ONLY three elements that can cause that code to be set. That being said, a malfuntion in one of those three components doesn't necessarily mean that any of them are broken or faulty, as it could be a pressure leak (or diversion - going where it shouldn't) in another location so large as to cause one (or both) of these two pressure-fed components to slip.

Here are the tech bulletins about the inline filters:
http://www.alldatadiy.com/alldata/A.../34853741/34850750/42063452/83598724/83598726
http://www.alldatadiy.com/alldata/A.../34853741/34850750/42063452/83598724/84766230
It states (at the end of the first one) that the filter should be replaced every 30K miles.....any idea how long it has been since the last in-line filter change? If that filter is plugged up then the pressure balance on the converter clutch shuttle valve...nah...let's just say it could really muck things up and cause less holding power for both the TCC and the other clutch packs. If I was you, I'd FIRST try removing the filter completely and see if the shudder still exists.

More to come.........

 

[Brain]

Now, you had mentioned that while gassing it on an on-ramp, there was plenty of acceleration and you didn't get codes for incorrect gear ratios for the lower gears (I'm assuming), so we can rule out a slipping overdrive one-way (sprag) clutch as well as the forward clutch. Just thought I should mention that while it is on my mind so we can rule things out.

Now the TCC operates by having its piston either being pushed on by LINE pressure or off by pressure from the MAIN regulator valve (NOT the same source). There are only two ports that feed pressure to the TCC, so to apply the TCC pressure is fed in one direction and exhausted out the other, and the opposite port is pressurized and exhausted to disengage the TCC. If there is a leak when the TCC is being applied, LINE pressure could be reduced enough to cause the other clutch packs to slip. Same thing for the TCC solenoid, if it is leaking line pressure could be exhausting. The same goes for the coverter clutch shuttle valve, plug, or shuttle ball.

Let me state really quick what I think I'd do to try to fix the problem:
1) remove in-line filter and see if that fixes it
2) replace the TCC solenoid valve and check the shuttle valve, plug, and shuttle ball for free movement and take pressure gauge readings
3) replace the fluid pump support seal (more on this later) - this requires partially removing the tranny
4) replace the TC

 

[Brain]

Alright....this third part is ugly because it requires removing the tranny (which is a pretty large effort).

The following TSB shows the P0741 code possibly being an issue with the front pump support seal:
http://www.alldatadiy.com/alldata/A.../56351048/34853741/34850750/42063452/57919563

Although the bulletin was written in '97, the diagnosis fits the symptoms. The good news is that it is possible to save the original TC and not even have to open up the tranny, just partially removing it from the truck.

Since this bulletin was composed in '97, it doesn't show the latest design of that seal, which doesn't have a single cut in it - scarfed or blunt. I think the '99 model had a blunt-cut yellow seal in it while the newest design is grey, teflon impregnated, and is solid (no cut).

If you haven't seen the Frankentranny thread, here it is (is is loaded with pictures, so be forwarned if you are using a dial-up connection):
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117793&page=1

This thread has the three different type seals (the tech bulletin refers to two of them). You can see the yellow seal in place on the third page (post #50), and all three of them side-by-side in post #81 on page 5 (along with other TC pictures).

The modifications to the TC bushing drainback hole are shown on page 1. This requires drilling out the pump, seperator plate, and bellhousing (which kills the seal which is why you have to replace it if you want this modification done). Here is the tech bulletin on that modification:
http://www.alldatadiy.com/alldata/A.../56351048/34853741/34850750/42063452/42467412

I hope that helps. I agree that the price for the work quoted isn't a total bargain, but it isn't a ripoff either. I just hope you don't have to go that route.

 

[martinfam5]

Brain, thanks for the info. I will try to summarize the issue to help this thread even further. Regrding the in-line filter. Original filter was on rig sometime before we got it at 67K miles. One owner Corporate lease vehicle, it even has the replacment secondary hood latch on it so I am assuming when the TSB's came out on the rig and including the in line filter the fleet lease groups replaced it.

New inline filter was installed with the previously referred to fluid change as well as the pan/valve body filter. Less than 500 miles since that change. Will check to verify the filter was put in in the correct in/out configuration, althought the mechanic who did the filter fluid servie is pvery comeptetnt.

The frustrating thing is that after the intial code resets and loose elctrical connector fix, we did not have codes again or shudder. Went ahead with the fluid/filter change as a preventative/baseline measure, pan was clean with no debris and thats when we picked up the shudder again, albeit with out codes to date. So to summarize
1. Codes and shudder, fluid smelled funky when hot (no basis for my sniffer though) assuming synthetic and treatment.
2. Code reader used by mechanic, connector loose on trans body, repaired connector and codes reset
3. 300+ miles with no codes no shudder
4. Fluid, pan filter, and inline filter changed
5. 200 miles with definite shudder, no codes to date
6. Lube-Gard installed - driven 50+ miles stull shudder
7. Second mechanic drives vehicle, determines TC is shot, explains need to replace and modify seal and drainback hole etc.

Questions:
Would electronic and pressure diagnostic checks confirm your and Glaciers' suggestion that I do not need a new TC? The drainback and seal stuff sounds almost verbatim what the Trans guy told me he would do confirming that he at least knows enough to not just repair to stock standards.

Second question, if I had him do the work, would what he is planning on doing (ne TC, Drainback mods, upgrade pump seal) address the concerns that you and Glacier have? In other woirds could I just be putting in a new albeit modified component (TC) that will ultimatley fail in the future due to and underlying electronic/hydraulic cause? Know it is tough for you guys to assess over the computer without actually seeing/driving the vehcile, but again as I have stated before the information on this forum has been right on and beneficial. Let me know your thoughts, I have a day or so to digest information and decide on how to proceed as Ford Dealer is doing the recall work (canshaft tensioner/intake "O" rings) tomorrow (Thursday 2-3-05) So rig is out of service for a day or two.

Cmartin

Martinfam5.

 

[Brain]

Let me address the second question first....I don't know if we are completely on the same page as to the seals that would need to be replaced. There are two seals - one at the back of the TC (a large seal that requires partial disassembly of the transmission to replace) and small one that is on the very front of the pump and ends up inside the TC (which doesn't require disassembly of the transmission).

If the one at the back of the TC was leaking, fluid would be coming out of the transmission and staining your driveway, but it would not cause the shudder. The earlier transmissions had a weakness in this area and the drainback hole modifications were a kind of band-aid solution for a weak design. Your transmission doesn't need this, but if you do have the modifications done, replacing that seal would be mandatory (because it cuts it up). Then again, it is probably a wise precaution to replace that seal if you are going to use a different TC.

The seal on the front of the pump shaft (that gets inserted into the TC) is the one that your Trans guy didn't mention (or you didn't mention it) that could be the culprit. I would replace this seal with or without a different TC as it could be the problem causing the shudder (as per the prior code and service bulletin associated with that code).

The biggest issue is that you have one symptom with multiple potential causes that can only be narrowed down somewhat with tests/diagnostics. It is like having a long pipe with several faucets and trying to figure out which faucet is leaking using a pressure gauge at the end of the pipe....you can tell that it is leaking somewhere, it just isn't easy to tell where. Without a pressure test/diagnostic then you can't see if there is a leak somewhere else causing you to have low line pressure - which in turn causes the shudder. Here's and example and potential problem: If the overdrive servo is leaking then you would see a drop in line pressure when you are in second gear and fifth gear (overdrive) and higher pressures in other gears. If you saw that you could spend the extra $12 for a new OD servo and not have that leak cause low line pressure which in turn causes premature failure of the other components (like the relatively expensive TC).

So to answer your second question- no, it doesn't cover all of the concerns that I would have unless a pressure test/diagnostic was done to eliminate any other potential hydraulic cause, and even then the front pump seal (as per the tech bulletin) wasn't addressed but should have been. The drainback modification is a good thing to do if it is out and apart, but shouldn't be the primary reason for removing and disassembling the tranny.

I hope that helps.

 

[martinfam5]

Brain, that not only makes sense but helps a lot. I will request clarification from the trans guy as I have an appointment on monday to take rig in. If memory serves me he did speak of the seal on the front of the pump shaft. I spoke with him in detail and he is going to verify that I for sure need a new TC as opposed to a seal and or solenoid. He sounds like he knows what he is doing, albeit not to the level of detail of you. At this point I am going to go forward with his proposed work, and the dealer where we got the rig has agreed to cost share on the work! He seems honest and not wanting to do more expensive workj than absolutley necessary. He also stated that based on his test drive the TCC solenoid is ok.

BTW, what happended to Glacier? I PM'd him and have not heard anything.

Thanks again

Cmartin

aka martinfam5