Synthetic Oils?

[briwayjones]

It seems most people sweer by Mobil 1 but are there any real differences between sythetic oil from the major companies Mobil, Pennzoil, Castrol, Quaker State ect.?

 

[glfredrick]

It seems most people sweer by Mobil 1 but are there any real differences between sythetic oil from the major companies Mobil, Pennzoil, Castrol, Quaker State ect.?

Yes.

There are true synthetics and then there are syntehtics that have just enough synthetic oil to be comercially tagged as being synthetic - and then there are also the blends - that have varying amounts of synthetic. This is all due to a loosening of the oil industry standards for labeling of products a few years ago.

Most people that run Mobil 1 do so becasue it is readily availible and cheaper than something in a true synthetic like Amsoil, Royal Purple, or Red Line. The rest of the products out there are of a lesser degree of synthetic quality and need to be treated as if they were regular dino oils (change intervals, etc.). That is not to say that these national oil brand synthetics are bad - they are likely better oils than their dino counterparts - but they are not the full house synthetic and do not come with the same type of warrany extended protection, etc. that Amsoil, Royal Purple, or Redline oils give.

As a general "for instance," Chevy runs Mobil 1 (or did at least) from the factory in their Corvette engines right from the start. Amsoil will tell you that you cannot run their oil in an engine from brand new - as it needs time to break in first. That means that there is a difference in the wear characteristics of the true and full synthetics versus the national branded synthetics to me.

 

[briwayjones]

Hmm, so Mobil 1 is not a full synthetic? I was under the impression it was. Wow, and I thought only the ones labeled as a blend were blended. But the major companies synthectic oil is not full synthetic either? If that's the case is there much advantage going with a partial synthetic considering they cost about twice as much as conventional oil?

 

[glfredrick]

I would say that Mobil 1 is a full synthetic oil, but that it is not made to the same standards that the original full synthetic oils are made (Amsoil in particular - which was the first true full synthetic).

The blends are likely good, as I said, but whether or not they are worth more money than standard oils is debatable. The domestic synthetic oils are also good - and do offer some of the advantages of true synthetic oils, and at lower costs, but they do not typically extend change intervals, etc. Same goes for Mobil 1.

As far as "wasting money" on oils - I cannot think of a better way to "waste money" than on the best oil I can run in my vehicle. I have actually saved lots of money over the years by running both the domestic synthetics and the true synthetics, even though they cost more. I typically run my vehicles well into the 300,000 mile range, and I do not belive that I could do that with standard (and sometimes very poor quality) dino oils.

See my post here for more reasons why I say this:

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25635&highlight=Pennzoil
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114877


You might also want to check this related information:
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

 

[briwayjones]

Thanks, that sheds a lot of light on this.

 

[85Dave]

Mobil 1 is a true synthetic. Oil basestocks are graded according to how they are made, and how they perform.

Group I is solvent refined. Basically, take petroleum oil and mix it with solvents to remove waxes and other things. This is the cheapest oil.

Group II is hydrotreated. Petroleum oil that is reacted with hydrogen to remove impurities and convert other impurities into oils. It performs better than a Group I, but costs more.

Group III is hydrocracked. A more severe form of hydrotreating. And these oils perform even better than a Group II, and costs even more.

Group IV takes gases like ethlyene and chemically forms them to the preferred molecular length. This is expensive, and is a "true" synthetic since you are "synthesizing" oils from other components.

Group V uses esters to form oils. Similar to Group IV, but different chemical properties. This is the most expensive.

Purists consider only Group IV and Group V to be "synthetics". But "synthetic" has no legal definition. So oil manufacturers can call anthing a "synthetic". In practice, Mobil calls Group IV/V synthetic. Most other manufacturers call Group III a synthetic.

Oils today are usually a mixture of 2 or more of these various groups. Mobil 1 is a blend of mostly Group IV and some Group V. So it is a "true" synthetic. Amsoil may be Group III/IV/V depending on which oil. Redline is mostly Group V.

I personally think the Mobil 1 is a better oil than Amsoil. But the difference is minute. Another good "true" synthetic is Castrol Ow30 made in Germany. The "German Castrol" is a Group V oil. The other Castrol Syntecs are Group III.

 

[briwayjones]

So does Mobil 1 have a longer life like Amsoil does 25,000 between changes or whatever?

 

[glfredrick]

Very informative - thanks!

 

[85Dave]

If you believe that you can go 25,000 miles on Amsoil, I've got a bridge to sell you. Read the fine print. It says "up to" 25,000 miles "or one year". There have been cases of this happening, but it's rare. Usually involves a bypass filtration system. Amsoil is an excellent oil, but not any better than Mobil 1.

Take a look at the oil test that Paradise Garage did. They used Amsoil in a Camaro, and sampled it every 1,000 miles. The oil didn't last anywhere near 25,000 miles. They then tested Mobil 1. It went quite a bit further than Amsoil.

If you want to learn more about oils, check out BOBISTHEOILGUY.

 

[glfredrick]

Just so that you know, I regularly went 25,000 miles on an oil change running the early version of Amsoil. I changed the filter out at mid-point, added a quart of oil and drove on for the rest of the miles. That was seldom a year, as I drove a lot of miles, but the car performed very well, and when I sold it at 245,000 miles, it was still using just that one quart of oil per year. The car continued to be used around town for 2 more years, and the person who puchased it sent their daughter driving to Phoneix from Central Wisconsin with it when it was time for her to start college. That is pretty fair performance.

I know that this is anecdotal, but it worked for me.

 

[briwayjones]

I think the only way I can justify the cost of a Synthetic is if I don't have to change it near as often as conventional oil.

 

[aldive]

I think the only way I can justify the cost of a Synthetic is if I don't have to change it near as often as conventional oil.

And isn't that one of the best reasons for using synthetic?

 

[briwayjones]

Yeah I guess what I'm asking is, is what is kind of the general rule for changing sythetic oil? Conventional 3k-5k, but I'm hearing up to 25k with synthetic but yet that may not really be true. I guess what I'm saying is I'm a little confused.

 

[aldive]

If you believe that you can go 25,000 miles on Amsoil, I've got a bridge to sell you. Read the fine print. It says "up to" 25,000 miles "or one year". There have been cases of this happening, but it's rare. Usually involves a bypass filtration system.

I have done it on several vehicles with excellent oil analysis results. I do not use a By Pass filter system. I know many others who go 25k with Amsoil.

How much for the bridge?

 

[glfredrick]

What I did the first time around, using extended service intervals, was to take advantage of Amsoil's oil testing service. You send them a sample of the oil, they test it and report back to you. I no longer do that becasue I know what the results are going to be... I had no problems with 25,000 mile intervals, but I won't recommend them to you - each vehicle is different, with different conditions and driving styles.

What several of us ARE saying is that WE managed to do that. It is possible, but you need to take matters into your own hands and do your own tests to make sure that you get similar responses in your situation.

 

[aldive]

Oil testing is an essential part of extended service.

 

[SiLenZe]

i like synthetic oil because i change it in november and dont have to change it again till march when the weather is nicer.

 

[briwayjones]

How/where do you go about getting your oil tested?

 

[aldive]

How/where do you go about getting your oil tested?

I use Dead Link Removed

 

[glfredrick]

BTW, if you are conemplating long term oil useage, please do yourself a favor and check out filter types. Cheap filters like Fram will simply not cut it. At best they MUST be replaced at about 2000 mile intervals as their cardboard internals are just not up to long-term service. (FYI - I would NEVER run a Fram oil filter on my vehicle - they are not quality products - cut one open and you will see what I mean.) I used the Amsoil filters, which I believe are manufactured by Wix and are high quality filters. I changed filters at midpoint in the 25,000 miles, and added a quart of oil to make up for the filter change.

One other advantage of synthetic oils that we haven't discussed yet in this thread are their cold weather traits. I began running synthetics BECASUE of the extreme cold winters in Wisconsin - not becasue I didn't have to change oil all winter, but becasue of how the vehicle responded with that oil when it got cold outside. In -25* weather (yes, minus 25 degrees) dino oil of almost any manufacture is about the consistency of Karo syrup.

I have seen oil filters blow right off cars when people rev a cold engine - and imagine what it is doing to the bearings, etc. Gear oils are about the consistency of peanut butter in those temps. My F 150 full-time 4x4 wouldn't even move unless I floored the throttle on my 500 HP 390. (Diesel fuel solidifies at those temps unless blended with lighter weight products!)

With Amsoil synthetics, I was able to start in cold weather as if it were summer time, and drive away at will with little of no warm up time. There was a fantastic difference in cold weather operation and an added bonus was that I knew that I also had great hot weather protection from the long-chain molecule synthetic oils.