transfer case issue

[Facimeor]

I see. Your transfer case might certainly have issues, but Im not sure you dont have a bad transmission as well.


I picked up a transfer case from my local junkyard for my 98 for $125, so that was an easy cheap swap for me rather than rebuilding it.


Actually it is possible now that I think about it that you could be sitting still and still have rotation in the T/C if the connection between the main shaft and the output shaft is toast.

 

[Hurbold]

Right. That's about how I feel about it. Not sure what's wrong with this thing, but I'll get the case pulled and opened up, and we'll see what's going on. If it's completely thrashed, I'll go to one of the local yards and find one with low miles. After that, if I'm still having problems, I'll have to look at the tranny

 

[Hurbold]

Does the wife know you used her pyrex measuring cup?

FYI before bed:

Before I picked her up from work, I emptied both and soaked them in soap and hot water in the kitchen sink. The non-stick coating on the saucepan seemed to retain the smell of burnt fluid more than the pyrex, so I had to boil some water in the saucepan until she was convinced that she couldn't smell it any longer. Plenty of irritated questions regarding toxicity to animals/humans/etc

cya

 

[Facimeor]

**** man you must like to live dangerously. Just like I never wanted my wife to use my tools for other than intended purposes, she felt the same way about her kitchen.

But if shes the soon to be "ex", I say hide a cup of gear oil somewhere in the one of the kitchen cabinets. That **** wil make the kitchen smell like a junkyard for a LOOONG time!

 

[Hurbold]

Nice theoretical idea if I was hypothetically the type of individual who would do such a thing...



So, it took a bottle jack under the breaker bar to bust the flange nut loose, and it took two goes with the jack before I was able to turn it with a ratchet/cheat bar. It's successfully loosened now.

I'll post back once the case is out or apart.

Thanks.

 

[Hurbold]

Got it out about an hour ago. The woman has the camera so no pics right now, but here's how it went.

1. The top passenger-side bolt was a nightmare. They put just enough stuff in the way to make it a real chore. That 13mm gear wrench did end up coming in handy on the t/c to tranny bolts.

2. Separated the t/c from the tranny a bit and drained the fluid into the saucepan

3. Benched it out of there and the front driveshaft cv joint that connects to the t/c decided to come with it. Nice. That joint is completely destroyed, obviously. Pulled it off the t/c and the area underneath on the t/c itself looks fine

Overall, the t/c looks fairly clean in relation to the rest of the undercarriage, so maybe I'll get lucky and it won't be too thrashed on the inside. I'll update when I get it opened.

As far as the front driveshaft cv joint problem, I'm wondering if I'd be better off with one of the cv rebuild kits, or a junkyard shaft. Looks like I can get the rebuild kit for around $100 or get a used shaft for around $100. Any thoughts on that?

 

[albi1cnobi1]

I would go for the rebuild kit if they are around the same price. At least you'll know what you've got going forward.

 

[Facimeor]

I would snag one from a pick-a-part if you can find one. Its pretty rare for them to fail unless they are being offroaded alot.

 

[Hurbold]

Ok, thanks, guys. I agree with both opinions. I guess it will boil down to price on that.

So, got rained out yesterday afternoon, which was probably good since it was 94 degrees out while I was working, but I really wanted to get inside that case. I just left it alone, cracked a couple of cold ones, and decided to hit it by 8 this morning.

I had loosened all of the T-40 bolts holding the halves together, so I finished pulling them this morning. Sticking a little pry bar between the ears on both halves easily split the case. I carefully pried a little all the way around with a large flathead to get an equal amount of space between the halves, so as to assist with making sure I pulled the halves apart evenly.

Here's what I was greeted with:

Ok, so no huge apparent issues like a destroyed clutch pack or anything like that. My first impression was, "dang, that pump filter is clean". I mean clean as in see-through. So, I inspect a little more closely:

Ok, so the tube on the pump is busted and the pump input is shoved up against the shift fork, tearing the pump input up in the process. This explains some of the fragments I found when draining the case. I find a little piece of metal sitting in the bottom of the case that is apparently a broken off piece of the pump - a flange that locks the pump in the correct position. Here it is at a better angle. Note the incorrect position of the pump. I also stuck the little piece of metal on top of the pump for clarification:

Alright, well, that kind of sucks, I think, and proceed to remove the pump. Well, great, the output shaft comes out with it:

It appears to be seized on there, and thinking about it, I suppose that would make sense if the pump's not doing its job.

Ok, so I next remove the helical cam assembly, shift fork, and hi low collar.

I'll be replacing the white plastic guides in the shift fork; only one of them is really beat up and the fork itself passes my visual inspection:

Hi lo collar is worn and should probably be replaced:

And that's where I'm at, specifically fighting with that dang snap ring under the planetary. Guess I need a better set of snap ring pliers, but we'll see. Good news is planetary turns nicely, but I figure I should pull and inspect, anyway.

The rest of the good news is that everything else in the case currently passes visual and tactile inspection, at least to me. Really, I'd imagine this thing's been serviced or rebuilt relatively recently, and someone did something really stupid during or after, while driving the vehicle.

Here's my assumptions/questions. Any negatives or affirmatives on these would be great.

[Edit: some answers to these I found after more research]
1. What would cause the tab on the pump to break? Is there something missing in the slot on the front case half allowing the pump to move too much? If not, I'm guessing a lack of fluid prevented the pump from doing its job and it seized up prior to the tab breaking.
Answer: Still don't know why it decided to break, could have broken before or after it seized. The pump tab does wear out the place where it sits in the edge of the case half. Can't go with Omega halves (which fix this) for now but Sonnax and Adapt-a-Case each make kits for this. I'm considering one of these kits a necessity.

2. That pump should just slide right off the output shaft
Answer: Yes, it was definitely seized.

3. Since the pump was not lubricating its connection on the shaft, it seized up
Answer: However it happened, yes, and definitely not good

4. If so, I may as well just try to beat the pump off of the shaft and hope for the best, since I'll probably need a new shaft.
Answer: yeah, tapped at it with a rubber mallet for a bit until it popped off. The softer metal from the pump seems to have melted onto the aluminum race, so I'm not so sure the aluminum underneath is unusable. I'll take a pic when I decide

5. Can't seem to find an output shaft or hi-low collar for sale. I imagine the collar is probably around 60 bucks or so, new, and that the output shaft is gonna be pushing $200 or so, new, if I can find it. Does this sound about right? Anyone know where to find the shaft? Are these shafts at all interchangeable between t/c's (like maybe from a t/c more easily available or cheaper)?
Answer: Found the output shaft, either with or without an included pump assembly from Motive Gear. Not sure how much, but a shaft for a 1354 can be hand for around $140 new. This shaft seems real similar to the shaft in the 4405, but no luck on finding out if they're interchangeable. Motive Gear has different part numbers for the 1354's. Anyone know if it's possible to use the main shaft from a 1354? Thought it would be easier to find one of these shafts. The hi-low collar can be found for $40 by searching for 1354-089-002 or by referring to it as a "range slider"

I'll probably have to rename this thread to "N00b Guide for Fixing a 4405 for cheap"
[/EDIT]

If anyone could help me out on any of these, it would be much appreciated. Sorry this was so long, and thanks for all of the help. I'd be screwed without it and the rebuild thread.

Bill

 

[Facimeor]

I'm guessing a lack of fluid prevented the pump from doing its job and it seized up prior to the tab breaking.

Thats a fair assumption, but a chicken and the egg question regardless. Either the tube feeding fluid broke causing it to sieze and break the tab, or the pump failed and broke both the tab and the tube, which is my guess. Didnt you say barely any fluid came out of it?


Which version of T/C do you have. What does the tag say? I have an XL24-4405 sitting here that worked fine other than it needs a new chain. The fluid pump was working and the shaft is fine. You could cannibalize it for parts maybe? The parts should work in any 4405.


But you could also see if any local yards are selling a "core" T/C. If they come in with a cracked case they usually core them for cheap. The XL24 is the cheapest of the T/C's used in 98, and I picked mine up for well under $200.

 

[Hurbold]

Thats a fair assumption, but a chicken and the egg question regardless. Either the tube feeding fluid broke causing it to sieze and break the tab, or the pump failed and broke both the tab and the tube, which is my guess. Didnt you say barely any fluid came out of it?

Yeah, definitely a chicken/egg scenario, and of little import. Originally, I thought it might help me diagnose the issue, and I figured I'd be verbose and speculative with this thread, now that I've already started

Which version of T/C do you have. What does the tag say? I have an XL24-4405 sitting here that worked fine other than it needs a new chain. The fluid pump was working and the shaft is fine. You could cannibalize it for parts maybe? The parts should work in any 4405.

I have an F87A, but I agree that it shouldn't be a problem on the parts I'm dealing with. I appreciate the offer. How much do you want it and where are you located?

But you could also see if any local yards are selling a "core" T/C. If they come in with a cracked case they usually core them for cheap. The XL24 is the cheapest of the T/C's used in 98, and I picked mine up for well under $200.

Thanks for the pointers. I did some searches in that junkyard parts search engine, and didn't find anything for a decent price, and I get annoyed with calling around. Since there are several in a certain area a little ways from here, I guess I could go hunting tomorrow.

 

[Facimeor]

Im in Oregon. Shipping the whole thing would be counter-intuitive I think as far as cost. But just shipping the parts you need would be doable I bet. I wonder if there is a USPS flat rate box that would fit the shaft? I'll see what I can find out, but I would take $100 shipped for everthing that will fit in a flat rate box. (Up to 70lbs)

Since you have a shaft handy can you measure its length and width at its widest point?


Also this place seemed to be the cheapest I could find for parts

 

[Hurbold]

It's almost 14" long, so it looks like it would fit diagonally in the medium flat-rate box (around $12 priority), which would also include enough room for the pump assembly and range shifter. Of course, you'd have to remove that junk, so I'd want to make sure you're properly compensated. It's awesome of you to offer. I really appreciate it.

Your XL24 suggestion was particularly helpful, too, since the junk part finder turned up 2 of them (for $99 each) right around the corner from my house, but it was too late to call the guy and see if it's accurate. I'm going to call him in the morning and see if he still has them.

An, yeah, tbtrans seems to be the cheapest. Though they don't mention it on the site, I'd still be looking at probably $140+ for the main shaft alone, assuming they have it.

I could also take the shaft I have up to a shop with decent machinery and see if they can remove the non-aluminum material with something I don't have at the house here.

I'll let you know where I'm at once places open up in the morning.

Once again, I really appreciate your help.

 

[Facimeor]

Yeah no problem, Im happy to help. If you can get what you need locally and have it immediately to use for your rebuild that would be the ideal way to go. If that doesnt work out let me know. I can probably have it pulled apart and ready to ship parts to you before the weekend.

I never throw anything salvagable away so I can always stach mine away as a spare or for someone elses to cannibalize.

 

[Hurbold]

Just picked up an XL24-AA from the yard, and asked him to knock it down to $75, which he did. Seems to be in good shape. Only outward difference I can see is that this one is equipped with a damper on the rear case, and that it's hellaciously dirty. Unfortunately, I also get to mess around with the flange nut again, this time with the t/c out of the vehicle.

I'll let you know how it works out.

At any rate, thanks much, dude! If this works out, it'll be awesome.

 

[Facimeor]

**** for $75 you cant go wrong.


as I said before, with mine I put a couple 2.5" long grade 8 bolts into two of the threaded holes on the flange (I happen to have some sitting around as they once held a 460 to an engine stand), then put a long prybar in between them. That gave me enough leverage to undo the flange bolt.

 

[Hurbold]

Yeah, 75 bucks was a steal for me, especially since this case has 40k less miles on it. One tiny little piece of white plastic came out during the drain, which is encouraging.

I stuck a couple of real thick screwdrivers through the flange, and they started tearing up the fins on the case there. So, google maps to the rescue, and I find the coolest guy in the world (well at least around here), who lets me bring it to his shop. He stops what he's doing, breaks it off in 5 seconds, and won't take a dime from me. I offer some web design work in return (that's what I do), and head back to the house. I now have one bolt left to remove and can pull the case halves apart. (took a break and checked this thread, because it's 93 degrees out, and definitely needed a cold one)

FYI, there's another exterior difference I found in the XL24. The bolts that hold the case halves together are still T40's, but they're a 10mm hex flange as well, instead of the rounded head bolts on the F87A. This was a godsend, since a couple of them were stripping out with the T40, and I thought I was screwed, until I realized I could stick a socket on them. The bolts in the XL24 are definitely lower-grade than in the F87A. I'm sure there was some option they included the "better" t/c in. Still not sure why this model would need a damper, but maybe that's a correction for somewhere else in the drivetrain.

I'll keep this updated.

Thanks again!

 

[Facimeor]

The plastic was probably part of one of the fork guides which are cheap to replace anyway.

I tried the screwdrivers through the flange as well and was afraid I would break the case, thats why I went with the bolt trick. My impact is only rated to 250ftlbs.

I actually broke one of those case bolts off taking mine apart. Just snapped in two as soon as I put my impact to it, but I was also glad they are hex head.

I dont know what you are talking about with the damper. Can you please take a pic of it? Mine has a location at the back with 4 bolt holes, but there was nothing mounted there on any of mine (3 including the one on my 97).



p.s. its only about 50° here and was hailing a little bit ago.

 

[Hurbold]

I broke off the last one, as well.

No pics possible at the moment, which is really unfortunate. I need to find out if I'll get the camera back tonight. I'd really like to show the differences between these models while I have the chance.

So, my plan is to lay the parts out all nice and neat, and see if I can't get some pics before I go any farther.

I can say:

1. My XL24 is the same. The damper would bolt where those four holes are. On my F87A, those are just filled with studs

2. Each case half on both units has a different, sequential part number. There are some slight internal differences in the designs, particularly around the areas where the 4405 sees problems (shift rail bore oval-ling, and the pump tab cutting a slot into the front case)

3. There appear to be some differences in the clutch pack between the two, but only on the internal plates. Briefly looked at each of the plates in each of the clutch packs, and saw some slight differences. The plate on the outside of the XL24 does not have any friction material, or whatever, sprayed on, etc

4. Every other internal part I looked at that had a model number had the same model numbers between them.

So, this particular XL24 is in fantastic shape internally, so far, with the exception that the clutch pack plates are slightly burned, somewhat warped, and the pads that go around them are significantly worn. Pump and main shaft are in great shape. Range slider is in great shape. Everything else looks great. No "pump tab eating front case" problem, nor any "shift rail ovalling out bores problem", nor any "shift fork pad erosion" problems at all. That said, really not sure where the white plastic piece came from during draining, except that maybe I was mistaken or it was a leftover from a rebuild. I didn't use the saucepan this time (that's still under the truck), so one can never be sure.

XL24 came from a vehicle with 128k
F87A came from a vehicle with 160k

I'm going to play with them a little more to make sure I can at least use the front half in my rebuild. I may even simply stick the F87A clutch pack in the XL24, as long as everything else is the same.

I'll take pics or post more before I put it together.

Yes, your weather sucks right now, sorry. NW is pretty, but this SE boy got depressed with the weather the last couple of visits...

 

[Hurbold]

I took some pics of differences between the t/c's this morning with yet another cell phone camera, and decided to take the day off. I'll post those pics tomorrow.

Here's the damper that was mounted to the XL24: