Transmission or transfer case? Or both?

[creeter]

I have a '97 Sport with a problem. Long story short, it was accidentally put into 4wd low, and driven at highway speeds for a day. I noticed several problems immediately (chunking noises, the feeling of skipping gears), and we parked it, checked fluid color & level, and right a light check on things in general (the other half worked at Firestone at the time). Everything seemed fine. The next morning, it would 'disengage' after about 25mph, once fully warm. I pulled over and got towed home, and as it was coming off the flatbed (being driven and doing fine at low speeds), the tow truck driver asked if it was in 4wd, cuz it sounded like it was stuck. I looked and sure enough, it was. I put it back in park, disengaged, put it in reverse, and backed it into my driveway.

It sat for a few weeks, then I called around to some local tranny shops. One shop was very reassuring on the phone, saying it might be something inexpensive to fix, that they would look at it for free. So they came to my house, picked up the truck - by driving it & telling us it would be fine to do so, and took it to their shop. After 3 days, they still had not called. When I finally got someone on the phone who could talk to me about my truck, they told me the tranmission and labor would be $4-5000, and that's if nothing was wrong with the transfer case. This number seemed absolutely ridiculous to me.

I kept calling around and again, found another shop that sounded like they would be honest with me, and I had the truck towed from one shop to the other.

The guy at the 2nd shop informed me that the first shop hadn't opened anything up and that they probably destroyed everything by driving it in. I would need a transmission and a transfer case to solve the problem now. He quoted between $2-4000, depending on any 'difficulties' they might run into. Oh, yeah, and he said that since the truck was there over the Thanksgiving weekend (when they weren't open), I owed him $123 for storage of the vehicle, since they weren't fixing it right now & he'd had it for 5 days. Before he'd release the vehicle to me that day, of course. And he confirmed, they didn't do any hard diagnostics, either - based their assessment on what they knew about it.

Something tells me that neither of these cats were being straight with me. I paid the money to get my truck back, drove it home (less than a mile) at low speeds and parked it. Stored it over the winter, starting it every once in a while, letting it run in park.

I moved a few months back, and had to drive the truck the distance. It did great, shifting as I increased speed, but toward the end of the drive (between 12-13 miles) you could start to smell a problem. It's been parked winter-storage-mode since.

Then I'm watching a car show on Spike, and the guy on there is talking about being able to tell if you had a transfer case problem, or a transmission problem. He said if the problem is the transmission, then the truck won't engage into a gear, it's a transmission problem, but if you can hear the vehicle changing gears as you increase speed, it's a transfer case problem.

My first question is, does that theory hold water? Because it leads me to believe that my problem is in my transfer case...

My second question is, can someone please lend me an honest opinion about where to look next. I'm really not in a place to just lay down 5k to some jerk trying to take advantage, I'm sure most folks are in the same shoes.

Thanks in advance for your advice or suggestions.

 

[bisjoe]

It seems hard to imagine driving at highway speeds all day in 4WL. The engine would be revving so fast that it would be screaming at you, and the tachometer would be at the red line. If that did happen, the damage could include the transfer case, transmission, tires, and even engine, at a cost far greater than the rig is worth.

On the other hand, if it was just in 4WH, most of the damage would be to the tires and transfer case. I think I would talk to friends and family to find a trusted mechanic, and pay him $80-100 to do an honest evaluation, then decide whether to spend the money to fix it or get what you can for it and buy something else.

 

[creeter]

The highway speed drives were only for a 25-min duration, two times. Just a commute back & home from work. Nothing was screaming, but there were noises. Just chunking, clunking, and it felt almost like skipping a gear or maybe the tires were skipping on the pavement a few times. No tach red-lining or anything like that. As soon as I noticed something was different, I started watching gauges like a hawk. As I recall, they weren't giving me any clues. I just didn't think to check the 4wd, cuz, I don't know, I rarely ever used it. To the best of my recollection (been over a year at this point) it was in 4wd low, but if what you are saying is true, none of that behavior did or has been exhibited, so maybe I was in 4wd high.

The tires are fine, they were/are pretty new ATs. The engine seems to have suffered no ill effects, tho it had just been replaced w/a rebuilt one less than a year before. This work was done at Firestone, by guys I could trust, but are no longer at the company. But even those guys don't know trannies.

I have asked around, and no one I know really knows transmissions that well. I've even had a couple of folks tell me I could put a '92 in it, but I know from research that 1st-gen won't work, plus I think my tranny is diff even for 2nd-gen cuz it's a '97.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[gijoecam]

Again, there's no way you drove it at highway speeds in 4low. With the switch in 4low, maybe, but not in 4low. I did the math once, and if my memory serves, red-line in 4low in overdrive put the vehicle speed at 67 mph for a 4.0 SOHC with 4.10 gears and stock tires.

Now, with the switch in 4low, the transfer case would have stayed in 4high (unless you happened to be stopped, in neutral, with your foot on the brakes, and then it would have shifted). If you had been in 4low, you would know it LONG before you made it to a freeway. Driving on a high-traction surface locked in 4high would not have been good for it, but should not have caused any significant damage. If it shifts fine, I would not expect a transmission problem of any sort.

I'm still not clear on exactly what the problem is or what it's doing currently that makes you think something's wrong. I would also agree that neither shop has done anything of value that merits discussing further. (aside from maybe the highway robbery on the storage fee, which is a whole other issue)

-Joe

 

[geoph1986]

The highway speed drives were only for a 25-min duration.

4WL + HWY speed (60 mph) + Time (25 min.) = Blown/burnt engine and/or blown transfer case. I too do not believe you drove in 4WL.

You said you cold "smell" the problem while driving, what did it smell like? The show on Spike is sort of right. Ive had bad transmissions that have had forward gears, but no reverse, and I've also have had ones that have reverse but no forward gears (or 4 forward gears of neutral lol). I've also had transmissions that slip in certain gears only. Have you checked you transmission fluid? Is it a nice red color, or is a brownish red color? Does the fluid smell burnt? Do your symptoms occur in 2WH, 4WH & 4WL? Is there metal filings in the transmission pan? How many miles on the transmission, and have you ever given the transmission a service (change fluid & filter)? If you can answer these, then we may be able to be more help, and not just grasping at straws.

 

[ExploringNC]

If you got to highway speed I too do not think you had it in 4L, the gearing would just not allow it. You probably did have it in 4H which is ok on the engine and transmission (it's meant to shift in and out of 4H up to 55mph) but your hubs won't like the dry pavement. If engine was not over reve'd then possible damage should be limited to transfer case, ring&pinion or hubs or all three. I'm not a drive train expert this is just my thinking.

 

[creeter]

Okay, here is how the problem happened...

We were at a scorching August afternoon soccer game with a very hot, very tired 7-month old. With the game almost over, I took him back to the truck, to start it up & run the air so he could cool off, and to give him something else to do until the game was over. The vehicle never left park. I didn't have any reason to have my feet on any pedals, so the brake pedal was never touched. I let my son play with vents, radio controls, whatever he wanted, except for the gear shift & the keys. I never thought to include the 4wd switch in that to-be-avoided list.

When we left the game & drove home, I did not notice a problem of any kind. Distance - less than 2 miles. Top speed - 35? 40?

The next day, I drove the truck to the store (close to the soccer fields) Distance - less than 2 miles. Top speed - 35-40 max

The following day was Monday. Time for work. On the way in, I noticed it doing what I'd said in my first post - almost like the tires were skipping, or a gear was skipping, and it seemed resistant to picking up speed with the ease I was used to. But I started watching, immediately, and listening, looking for signs. It did not red line, scream, smell, or do anything else to give me a clue as to what was going on.

On the way home, I was meeting the other half at a location about halfway between work & home. The first part of the journey, the highway travelling, was much the same as the morning drive. Weirdness but no obvious clues. The 2nd part of the journey - off the highway, thru lights & whatnot - it started to act like maybe it didn't wanna work so hard, and was really resistive to increasing speed. I told the other half about it when meeting up, and he advised to just baby it on the way home, he'd follow me, and he'd check it out when we go home. So that's what we did.

When we got to the garage, there were no smells, the fluid looked good & red, and he couldn't find anything else wrong. He didn't think to check that switch either. He advised to baby it as much as possible, & watch/listen for signs.

Tuesday morning came, and on the way to the babysitter, the tranny was starting to disengage. I didn't even make it half the distance when it would not engage at all. I pulled off the road, let things cool down,and tried again. It started up, took off, and did just fine for about 3 minutes. Then it disengaged again. I tried this again, one more time, with the same result.

I pulled off the road again, called someone to come get the kids & take them to sitter, called a tow truck, and waited. When the tow truck driver came, everything was totally cool, so it was no problem at all to drive the truck up onto the flatbed.

After the tow truck was positioned to deliver my truck into my driveway, we started it up, but before i could put it in gear, the driver said, hey, it sounds like it's stuck in 4wd... and sure enough, the switch was set to 4wd low. I felt like a complete moron.

We left the truck parked for about 2 monts while trying to come up with the money to have it looked at or fixed, but to no avail. Then I found those 2 shysters I mentioned in my first post, and the truck has been parked since.

Again, thru the winter months, it was stored under the garage overhang, started at least once every 2 weeks and left to run for at least 30 min, just sitting in park. I didn't want the engine to lock up from being stored outside for a harsh Ohio winter, nor for non-use.

Things went on like this for about a year. Then I moved. At the end of the move, I waited til late one night and just took my time driving the truck the 13 miles to the new place. This time, there were signs. Specifically, the smell of something burnt, about 2/3 of the way thru the trip - almost like a burnt up clutch, but not quite the same, and nothing like burnt up brakes or a blown head gasket. By the end of the trip, I was trying to see if there was smoke or something like it, I thought I might have seen a wisp or 2 of something, but it was too faint & too dark to tell. However, the engine responded as eagerly as I remember. I could hear and feel the gears changing as I accelerated down the road. One other thing about the trip - it started resisting acceleration toward the end, just like the first time I noticed a problem.

It has been parked thru the winter again, being started every whipstitch and let run for awhile.

To gijoecam:
If the switch was the only thing in 4L, and the default is 4-auto, does this mean i had a problem with the transfer case before, and this just made it worse? How could it get into 4H, if it wasn't in 4L either? Or is there some sorta saving grace in there that I just don't know about?

To geoph1986:
We checked the fluid the first time, but not after, now that I think about it. I'm pretty sure the transmission is the original - I bought the vehicle used in 2004 for a song. I believe the last time the tranny was serviced was when I had the engine replaced, in early 2007. August 2007 was when the problems started, so, at the time, it hadn't been too long, but it's been since then. Again, the 2 shops I went to didn't look at or change a darn thing.

Regarding ExploringNC's comment:
Is there any way to tell for sure what damage, if any, has been done to the hubs and ring & pinion?

The reason I'm trying to figure all this out is because my oldest just hit driving age, and I'm trying to figure out if it would be cheaper to fix what's wrong with the Explorer, or sell it for what I can get and get a different 2nd vehicle.

So any ideas that can be lent are MUCH APPRECIATED, as are those that have already been posted. I really like being able to come someplace and ask a question and just get an answer. Seems like that's a harder thing to get these days... =)

Thanks again...

 

[Verno]

I will agree with all the others who have given you info to this point. Even though the switch said 4 lo, you were in fact NOT in 4 lo. Seems like from your description that it was however in 4 Hi. I'd guess you have all but ruined the transfer case, and possibly the hubs. I doubt if engine or transmission problems have arisen from this, however, I would change all the fluids if you end up keeping it (MY SUGGESTION.) Look for a used T-case at a local salvage yard first.

 

[gijoecam]

It still doesn't sound like a transfer case issue to me. A t-case will not resist the forward motion of the vehicle unless there is something drastically wrong with it.

The burning smell is a dead giveaway that something is getting hot that shouldn't. My guess: A brake caliper that's hanging up. The first few times you use it, it's cool, and everything is fine. Eventually, the pad sticks, and the rubbing of the rotor on the pad that's sticking gets worse and worse. Hot brakes have a pretty unique smell, but it's tough to describe (unless someone says, "smell that? That's hot brakes"). I've even seen a parking brake shoe break free and wedge itself where it shouldn't be... Without pulling the wheels and looking, that's a guess at best.

Based on your description, you were not driving it around in 4low. If you've ever actually been in 4low, there would be no question about it. There's no comparison.

As for the bucking/hopping when cornering, that would be a symptom of a locked transfer case, as I would expect if the truck was in 4 wheel drive (high or low range). Just because the switch was in 4low doesn't mean it actually was. again, if you had been in 4low, you would have known it. At 40 mph, you would have been somewhere around 3500-4000 RPMs instead of a low 1800-2000. Huge difference there...

Even if you were in 4high, you didn't burn up any hubs. They turn all the time anyways. They're fine. If they were bad, you'd know it. They'd be making a heckuva racket.

So, in summary, my money is on a possible brake issue causing the dragging (possible trans issue, but unlikely IMHO), being locked in 4high causing the hopping , and at worst, the trans having issues causing it to disengage.

On that note, can you further describe the 'disengaging trans' thing? Please be as descriptive as you can... did it go POP! Then rev high, or did it simply go clunk and kill the motor? Did it make some funny noises? Did it make some funny feelings? Did reverse work? Did any of the manual gears (2 or 1) make it move? Were you accelerating or decelerating when it 'disengaged'? The better you can describe it, the more help we can be.

I'm starting to think there may be several coincidental things happening... some combination of brakes, trans, and t-case, but I wouldn't necessarily jump right to the transfer case as the culprit.I'm not saying it can't be the problem, but I wouldn't jump right to it (unless the guy at the trans shop can provide some plausible explanation for diagnosing it as a bad t-case.... a good mechanic should be able to explain not only WHAT he thinks is wrong, but WHY.)

-Joe

 

[geoph1986]

When you say the transmission disengaged, was it like the truck was in neutral or park? You know the engine revs fine but the truck doesn't go. Or was it like you can push the gas to the floor, the RPM's don't really go up, the engine is working harder but you're not really going anywhere? If it sounds like the latter or similar, I too would think something is hanging up, like gijoecam said possibly seized brakes. Brakes are a lot cheaper, and easier to inspect and repair. FWIW, brakes that are constantly engaged and getting hot, can smell similar to a burnt/burning clutch. I personally have never had a major component break without a big bang, crunch, pop, etc. I did once have a GMC Jimmy that would constantly blow a fuse, and it would cause my transmission to not shift right, and sometimes overheat. What I mean is the transmission would start out in 2nd gear, and shift early/late depending on temperature, I doubt that this is your problem though.

a good mechanic should be able to explain not only WHAT he thinks is wrong, but WHY.)

At the very least they should be dropping the pan(s) to see what, if anything bad is floating around in there, before they tell you the component is damaged, or completely shot.

EDIT: I know this sounds like a stupid question but, is your parking brake engaged? I now it sounds silly but...

 

[creeter]

Well you guys def have me convinced that the truck was not in 4L, no matter what the lil dash switch was set to.

When I'm talking about the "disengaging": I was travelling along, accelerating, and all of a sudden it was like I was almost in neutral. The engine revved just like normal, but I lost velocity cuz the power wasn't getting to where it needed to go. I say "almost in neutral" because it would still retain some forward motion, almost as if idling, but was not responding to the gas pedal/fuel injection in the way it normally does.

The parking brake was not engaged. I know this because it was actually disabled, a couple of years before the incident. While getting a rear brake job done, the parts for the e-brake literally fell off, and simply were not replaced. It was never used anyway, and I was told this would not be a big deal. (The brakes have also been done since then, by Firestone, and nothing was said to me about the missing or disabled e-brake/parts.)

Again, while things are "cool," the truck behaves absolutely normally. It's only when everything is fully warmed up that I have problems.

I will pull the tranny pan to look for loose chunks & check all fluids, etc. I will also see about getting the wheels pulled off & the brakes inspected, just so I know what's going on there too. I will kick myself for an intense amount of time if this was my brakes the whole time. :

And therein lies the rub - I've not been able to find a good mech who can tell me the what & whys. That's something I sorely miss, not being in my home town.

I should be able to get things checked out over the coming weekend. I'll re-post when I have more answers.

Thanks again, guys. You all rock!