Update to my tranny problems... RESOLVED

[pj8847]

Hey all, been a while since I posted, simply because I was kept very busy with doctor appointments, as well as my research into, and repair of my 4R tranny.

Just to recap, My problems originally started with a slight shudder in 3rd and OD under slight acceleration. After a fluid change, shudder was gone, but so was reverse. Found it to be a blown out VB gasket. Changed gasket, fixed reverse, but then developed a 2-3 shift flare. Dropped VB yet again and found new gasket had blown out (cheap thin ford crap) Changed gaskets again, 2-3 shift flare still there, which escalated into the loss of reverse (again) and 3rd gear, decided on new VB.

Ordered new VB from CENTRAL VALVE BODIES, (Donny is the main man there, excellent product). UPS lost the damn thing for over a week, then found it. Installed the new VB (once I got it) and found reverse and 3rd were still dead, but tranny was shifting like it never had before from 1st to 2nd. (VB was definitely doing it's job, and well). Finally narrowed down to blown out direct clutch (due to loss of reverse AND 3rd).

NOW, at present, I finally had the time to scrape up the dough to get my tranny fixed/replaced. Upon removal and disassembly of said tranny, I found that the ENTIRE rear section of the tranny was DESTROYED... (everything from the center support back was mangled, including the case...) The guys at the shop couldn't believe the truck was still moving, and 1st/2nd gear "felt" fine. They said, and I agreed after viewing the carnage that was torn out of the tranny, that I was one lucky **** that i could still drive the truck in the condition it was.

After discussing what to do, I figured the best way to go was a total build, new case, everything replaced, front to back. I had discussed previously with another shop about doing up a 5R, and getting it to work in my truck where a 4R originally resided. Well, it's done. Tranny was built with the case of a 5R, my original 4R bellhousing, new 5R guts/hard parts, new frictions, etc... OSS sensor bore was plugged (the sensor toward the tail of the tranny that is normally used in a vehicle that utilizes the electronic "5th" speed that is available with the use of an appropriately programed ECU) New TC, and my brand new VB was also used, now, I will note this, the VB was built for a 4R, not a 5R, so i am UNSURE if the tranny would have worked the way it should if I had opted to use a 5R VB. (from my research, there is a slight difference in valving, along with some different check-ball placement, and a different EPC on the 5R VB. Any more than that I have yet to discover, and would be speculation based on my limited knowledge of the 5R VB at this point)

Conclusion: The tranny works flawlessly. Shifting is extremely firm, allowing no slippage between gears. TC lockup literally feels like I have a whole additional gear. Downshifting is firm, but smooth. The VB I got from Donny is definitely TOP NOTCH work. All pressures are perfect, All gears engage as soon as the shifter lever is placed into each respective gear with NO delay, even the typically late engaging reverse.

So for any of those out there reading this, who may be experiencing the same symptoms I had, be warned, sure, a VB rebuild may band-aid the problems, and you may get lucky with just doing that and everything turning out fine, but you can bet once you start to get ANY amount of slip in these crap trannies, there is undoubtedly some form of internal damage, whether it be from burned frictions, or failing hard parts, either way, DON'T drive it if these symptoms show up, get it checked and repaired ASAP, because in these crap trannies, a minor failure WILL lead to a major one if you continue to drive it.

P.S. BTW, the whole cost for the build (because of my unique situation, and plentiful contacts/knowledge in the automotive field) came to $1000.
Not bad huh? Better than the $2400+ I was quoted from almost every shop I went to, and much better than the $1500 I was quoted from the first shop I was going to do the build at, AND I was even given 12 month/12,000 mile warranty on ALL parts and installation.

I'd give out the shop name and location, but they asked me not to due to this was a "favor" because of my situation (which has worsened, now they found a "mass" or in layman's terms, a tumor after a new hi-res? MRI of my right leg. Ah well, at least I have my truck back! I'll deal with the knee/leg as it comes... did I say I hate doctors? Oh wait, I said I hated tranny shops!

 

[Rick]

Glad to hear you got the tranny taken care of.

Good luck with the leg. That sounds like a real drag

 

[Glacier991]

pj... I'll now defer to you on Q's about the differences between the 4R and 5R. You appreciate the pain of having to ferret out stuff about these trannies.

Thanks for posting your update.... those are always instructive. I do worry sometimes that folks may read the 5R55E Valve Body Diary and believe that every problem in the 5R (and 4R) can be fixed by a VB rebuild. As you demonstrate, many cannot.

All that said, I believe that in a not insignificant percentage of cases, certain (remember that word - certain) problems in the 5R CAN be, and usually, if taken to a shop, end up as unnecessary rebuilds. Our task is to try and carefully delineate the symptoms that "MAY" be just a VB rebuild, versus those that implicate more.

Again, thanks for your informative post.

 

[pj8847]

Glad to hear you got the tranny taken care of.

Good luck with the leg. That sounds like a real drag

Thanks Rick, I'm happy to have the X back on the road, I didn't realize how much I'd miss driving it. As for the leg, well it's something I been dealing with over 6 months now, so a few more shouldn't be to bad, I'm just hoping they (the idiot doctors) can come to some conclusion as to how to proceed, before it gets any worse...

Either way, it gives me time to get back to the mods I was starting before the tranny failure (I already did the auto lamp/auto dimming RV mirror, and the heated SV mirrors with puddle lights the last 2 days) I'm hunting down a message center, lamp out module, some sensors and an electronic climate control with all the harnesses, and all the switches/wiring, etc... for the memory seat. Should keep me busy and my mind off of the bs for a while, problem is finding most of it, several message centers I've gotten my hands on were dead (my luck) as well as the one climate control i have happened to come across...

pj... I'll now defer to you on Q's about the differences between the 4R and 5R. You appreciate the pain of having to ferret out stuff about these trannies.

Thanks for posting your update.... those are always instructive. I do worry sometimes that folks may read the 5R55E Valve Body Diary and believe that every problem in the 5R (and 4R) can be fixed by a VB rebuild. As you demonstrate, many cannot.

All that said, I believe that in a not insignificant percentage of cases, certain (remember that word - certain) problems in the 5R CAN be, and usually, if taken to a shop, end up as unnecessary rebuilds. Our task is to try and carefully delineate the symptoms that "MAY" be just a VB rebuild, versus those that implicate more.

Again, thanks for your informative post.

Thanks Glacier, I'm by no means an expert on these crap trannies, but i did enough homework that now i could probably rebuild them in my sleep...lol (not that I wanted to get into it this much, and i have actually had dreams of all the diagrams and parts of these transmissions. Way to much reading before sleep on my part : )

I agree that there are some typical problems that occur due to VB failures and/or problems, like delayed engagement, shifts and low pressures (for some reason the 5R VB's have more of these problems? I'm still digging for more info as to why...) But I think once there is mechanical slipping involved in these things, or any code other than solenoid codes being thrown, damage is already happening, or has happened internally, and it should be torn apart. It is a shame though that the price to do so is so high, most shops say it's because it's an electronic transmission, but take away the VB, the solenoids go with it, and your left with a hydro-mechanical assembly that is driven by hydraulic pressure and frictions, just as any previous models before it that had no computer controls or electronics. (sad thing is, and this is just an example, take a GM Th 350, most places will do a rebuild for $300-$400, plus a little extra for installation and/or hard parts, what really is the difference in rebuilding either one? There is none if its just frictions/hard parts, and if the VB is fine in these "electronic" transmissions, there just is no justification for a $2000+ price tag. I pisses me off to no end... The place I had my tranny done, I just showed them an example of price for all the parts for my rebuild by going to bulkparts.com and transmissionpartsusa.com, the guys at the shop even confirmed they don't pay even HALF of what you pay for parts for on those sites, and those prices on the sites are pretty damn good. Most shops do so much volume, they pay cents on the dollar for parts, and rip off the customer because most don't know any better. I just wish more people would educate themselves and do the homework required, then maybe these ridiculous prices these shops charge will drop by a huge percent. (I can go on for hours on this, heh heh, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about)

BTW, I'm still digging on the whole switch from bushings, to toringtons, back to bushings question. After extensive conversations with the guys who did my tranny, (and many more) they have noticed (after I brought the question up) that alot more trannies utilizing torringtons come in needing a rebuild more often, than ones utilizing bushings/washers. they guessed same as I did, that contamination of the smaller surface area of the toringtons causes them to wear alot sooner than bushings/washers, which will throw off clearances, etc... but they too were stumped as to why ford went back and forth. There isn't alot of info coming out of ford as to why either, all I have gotten from my limited talks with some ford guys is that it has to do with durability, "supposedly" But they too didn't have an exact reason, or just wouldn't give me one.

I chalk it up to ford just being ford, heh heh remember their old slogan, "Ford, and their better ideas"... I guess some were not that much better after all?... lol

P.S. All I know now is, if this tranny fails, and it will simply because it is an inevitable eventuality, I'll be swapping in a manual, by that time though, I may just buy a new truck, I'm not a ford fan, but for some reason, I just love my Ex, and after checking out a neighbors brand new '07, (which is pretty sweet) I may get another.

 

[Glacier991]

I hear what you are saying about torringtons. In the abstract a torrington is way better than a bushing or thrust washer... yet I agree they can fail quickly when contaminated by metal particles... maybe even quicker than a softer bronze washer or bushing. Yet, if you took an old C-3 and replaced the washers with torringtons, I am willing to bet you'd have a better tranny.

I think it all comes down to the learning curve on electronic controls. The ideas of modulated solenoids and controlled slip were creative but had an associated learning curve. The result of not knowing how to take care of these led to problems.

Also, these newer trannies are highly dependent on the friction qualities of their fluids, and have electronic pressure control devices that have a relatively short lifespan. Where in the days of old you might get away with not changing fluids ... these trannies using MERC V need frequent changes and attention to the pressure control solenoids that most do not get. Soon we are overheating them and burning up frictions or whatnot... the torringtons suddenly are on a diet of unhealthy stuff.

In science we like to see a change of one thing at a time to see how it fares. The 4R-5R series underwent a number of changes all at once. My opinion is that the change to torringtons was a good one. The change to electronic control was not as good. (In theory yes, but in practice no).

I think the Frankentranny may represent the best of all worlds for the A4LD. Torringtons and NO electronic control (well almost). But no modulated solenoids.

I am excited at the prospect of doing my own Frantentranny Rebuild Diary this winter.

I am also wanting to know if the 5R55W/S/N series have any backwards compatible parts to the 5R55E (that could end up an a Frankentranny II?).

 

[Booger666]

Glad to hear your problem was fixed, I wound up putting a 5r55e directly in my explorer and all seems to be good now(got a steal of a deal on it) seems you need a new plate behind the flywheel and a new style starter to make it work (shop I talked to said they do it all the time for these).

Booger

 

[BrooklynBay]

Speaking of different valve bodies, I came across these pages from a valve body distributor: http://valvebodypro.com/products_4r44e.html, and this page: http://valvebodypro.com/cgi-bin/catalog-4r44e.pl. According to this, there are 3 types of valve bodies. Other than a different EPC solenoid on the later 5R, I don't know what the difference could be between these 3 valve bodies.