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werid start up

LOCKONS7RA7US

Active Member
Joined
August 14, 2015
Messages
81
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5
Location
Everett , wa
City, State
Everett washington
Year, Model & Trim Level
1992 , eddie bauer
Callsign
Taco Run
I went to start this morning and wouldnt start like a dead battery but the battery is new and tested fine bing at 12.7 ... but everytime i went to start the rig i would hear gurgaling sounds coing from the gas tank .. and after turning the key on and off for about 4-5 times the rig would start .. sometimes it wont sart in park but if i put it in nuetral it would start .. i drove it the day before so it should have started right up its not like it sat for weeks or months soo idk at a loss .

i replaced the Battery , Starter , starter solenoid , and alternator , i also replaced the fuel sending unit as well during this last summer .. ( but i dont think i checked to make sure air was out of the lines ..... IDK

or IDK if the ACT is casuing start issuies casue i know that is a possibility .. i guess the gurgaling is whats getting me ..
 



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It is unclear if you are describing 1 , 2 , or even 3 separate issues.
wouldnt start like a dead battery
So "click", with no attempt to turn over? If yes, then first suspect is a connection issue. Begin at battery terminals looking for corrosion. Can be hidden by sheathing.
If no "click", and no attempt to turn over, does KOEO position consistently turn the eletcrical on?


everytime i went to start the rig i would hear gurgaling sounds coing from the gas tank
you hear this every time you tried to start, unsucessfully? Would you hear it on sucessful starts?

The not starting in park but will start in neutral might be cooincidence if you are requiring >4 key turns. You have an auto/column shift though so could also suggest a column wiring /ignition switch issue if more successful starts occur from an ireggular lever position. don't have enough info though.

if you have consistent electrical at KOEO, start with a fuel pressure test.

Also , put to KOEO while standing outside the vehicle, instead of sitting inside to try to verify that the gurgle sounds are actually coming from tank. But first, make sure that tank cap has a good seal.
 






It is unclear if you are describing 1 , 2 , or even 3 separate issues.
wouldnt start like a dead battery
So "click", with no attempt to turn over? If yes, then first suspect is a connection issue. Begin at battery terminals looking for corrosion. Can be hidden by sheathing.
If no "click", and no attempt to turn over, does KOEO position consistently turn the eletcrical on?

okay so let me do some back peddeling here and see if i can make better sense of my words... So yes when i go to start said rig its a full key turn to start the car but no attempt to turn over its just a click /thud like the starter spendenx just didnt want to fully engage . I would keep trying like 4 time completly off then full turn to try and start with same issue . knowing the battery is fully charged and testing at 12.7 and not dipping below 10.8 i believe and charging at 14.5 . just tring to get it started to get to work i threw it into neutral and would start on the 2nd attempt through it back in park and it would be fine .

but yes click with no attempt to turn over and yes the key does turn on all electrical . i do suspect that there may be some kind of draw coming from something .. maybe IDK anymore .





everytime i went to start the rig i would hear gurgaling sounds coing from the gas tank
you hear this every time you tried to start, unsucessfully? Would you hear it on sucessful starts?

yes i hear it when ever i turn Key on engine off , and i dont remember honestly but im leaning towards no because this is a new thing thats got me boggled

The not starting in park but will start in neutral might be cooincidence if you are requiring >4 key turns. You have an auto/column shift though so could also suggest a column wiring /ignition switch issue if more successful starts occur from an ireggular lever position. don't have enough info though.

could it be a possible ignition control module >? and yes auto colmun shift and again first time this happened that its requied this , also dont know what other info would be helpful


if you have consistent electrical at KOEO, start with a fuel pressure test.

will start there

Also , put to KOEO while standing outside the vehicle, instead of sitting inside to try to verify that the gurgle sounds are actually coming from tank. But first, make sure that tank cap has a good seal.

well i cut a hole above the fuel sending unit insidse the car insitead of droping the tank so i say i hear the gurgle in the car just cause of the hole still there so it pretty profound . but i will try what you said for verification purposes
 






I would check (or recheck) the terminals, make sure they are clean and tight. Check the cables for corrosion. It can be hidden under the plastic.
That single loud click has always been something in the battery-starter-fender solenoid triangle in my experience.
I would guess that the occasional shifter position/starting stuff is a separate issue that’s complicating it for you.
 






I would check (or recheck) the terminals, make sure they are clean and tight. Check the cables for corrosion. It can be hidden under the plastic.
That single loud click has always been something in the battery-starter-fender solenoid triangle in my experience.
I would guess that the occasional shifter position/starting stuff is a separate issue that’s complicating it for you.
The only thing i havent touched or replaced in that fender triangle are the positive and negative cables .. so looks like ill have to figure out some stuff when i have free time or just replace them since they are the OG cables from 92.. lol
 






still ado that fuel pressure check but responding;
click /thud like the starter spendenx just didnt want to fully engage .
Thud? As in single thud regardless how long you hold the key in ignition start position? You mentioned replacing the starter. If you are getting "thud", you might want to visually triple check the proper mounting of the starter.
knowing the battery is fully charged and testing at 12.7 and not dipping below 10.8 i believe and charging at 14.5 .
Measure the resting battery voltage at battery terminals and again (-)at the body/ hood ground strap etc and (+) at starter relay(terminal closest to front of car). If you see 0 voltage difference, can likely eliminate corrosion within sheathing. A wiggle test provides extra faith in connectivity.
i do suspect that there may be some kind of draw coming from something
elaborate if possible

gurgle:
yes i hear it when ever i turn Key on engine off
well i cut a hole above the fuel sending unit insidse the car insitead of droping the tank
i replaced the ... the fuel sending unit


so it happens when priming. As you have a modified (hole cut instead of dropped tank) I can't know what perceived sound to expect for sure. possibly backflow check valve? Loose connections on the sending unit module? fuel pressure test will provide better info on which to speculate. Can also see if sound changes at varying levels of fuel in tank.


could it be a possible ignition control module >?
The ignition control module is not a steering column component, and no, so far the info you have provided so far does not imply the ICM is suspect,as I see.

If you consistently heard click/thud on unsucessful starts with shifter lever in "P", steering column wiring would not yet be suspect,
 






Update **
Been able to get it running and it turnning over on first start up... which i was able to get some readings..
Battery voltage resting 12.45v

Battery voltage running peak startup 14.90v

Ideling voltage 14.59v

Positive terminal to body 14.56v

Voltage at the starter relay 14.57v




But now regaurdless of gear lever orientation and steering wheel orientation , or how many cranks at the key to try and turn the car over . i get the same issue have i power dash lights up, but when i go to start the car and turn the key not starting or turning over.. just a thud that the spendix of the starter got pushed out but didnt even attempt to spin and turn the fly wheel and crank motor over . So i guess i need to look at the starter ? Starter solenoid ? This frustrating that i cant seem to pinpoint this starting problem.. when it runs drives fine no issues lol just cant start or turn over lol i have a video but site says file to large 😮‍💨
 












When you replaced the starter, did you inspect the flex plate?
 












No i didnt..
I have not directly experienced the sound&description your posts and video describe, but I think the usual supect so far will be the flex plate. inspect teeth and distance from starter ( for possible evidence of cracking).

the sound in yor video warrants concern.
 






So, let's just cover a little general theory first so we are on the same page.

A starter will have two wires connected, one just a regular looking wire, and one heavier cable. The regular wire is, in essence a trigger wire. Turning the key to START applies voltage to this wire via the fender-mounted starter relay. Applying power to this regular wire at the starter energizes the starter-mounted solenoid, which then mechanically pushes the bendix out to engage the fly-wheel.

Now, when the bendix is fully extended, that is, fully extended and engaging the flywheel, the starter-mounted solenoid closes a set of internal contacts. You can't see these contacts, they are inside the solenoid under the bakelite plastic end cap where the wires connect.

(trivia break: Did you know that, at one time, people used to replace just these contacts rather than the entire starter? You could buy a little kit for $5.00. That was before everything became disposable)

Ok, now I have to go back to the heavier cable. The heavy cable connects directly to the battery (+). The internal contacts connect this power to the starter motor itself.

So... turn key, fender-mounted relay engages, starter solenoid engages, bendix extends, contacts close, starter turns, car starts.

There is a method to this madness. You do NOT want the starter to turn until you know the bendix is engaged, otherwise you can trash the starter and flywheel.

With this understood, what is going on in this case?

It sounds like the bendix is engaging, or at least trying to. It would be good to verify this by opening the hood and listening for where the sound is coming from. But, my old ears are hearing some mechanical noise, so I am assuming this to be the case, that the bendix is at least trying to engage.

With this assumption, here are some possible causes for your problem:

1) A poor connection somewhere on the heavy cable. For this, I would start by looking at the starter where the heavy cable connects. It's a big lug on a big threaded stud with a nut. This connection can be ok and then go bad. What happens is, there might be a little film of grease on the wire lug and over time, the jolting starter, the engine vibration, this connection loosens up slightly. This connection has to be really good, otherwise power never gets to the contacts so the starter never turns. Take this connection apart after disconnecting the battery of course, and use some degreaser on the lug, the threaded stud, and the threads inside the nut. Then put it back together and tighten it up as tight as you dare. It will take some torque, but use a good wrench, you don't want to round the flats on the nut... the nut is soft metal.

2) Something has happened to the starter mounting where the bendix is no longer lined up to engage the flywheel properly. This can be as simple as a starter mounting bolt backing out. Again, a little grease on the threads, the jolt and vibration can back out a bolt. This gets a little more common with older engines because the bolts thread into the bell housing which, if I recall, is aluminum, so the threads can get a little wonky after the starter gets swapped out for the 10th time. I had this exact thing happen on my explorer where the bell housing threads went bad. As I recall, I ended up using a nut on the other side. A bit of a hack.

3) Power is not getting on the heavy cable on the battery end. Inspect the (+) clamp, peel back the insulation on the cable a little bit and inspect for corrosion. After you do this, apply a little grease or something to the wire you exposed, otherwise you will eventually get that corrosion... and you do not want to have to change that cable.

4) Defective starter.

I guess if I had this job, I would look at the battery connection first because it's a one-minute thing. If that was ok, I'd have to get access to the starter and check the other things, and if everything looked ok, I would get the starter tested.
 






So, let's just cover a little general theory first so we are on the same page.

A starter will have two wires connected, one just a regular looking wire, and one heavier cable. The regular wire is, in essence a trigger wire. Turning the key to START applies voltage to this wire via the fender-mounted starter relay. Applying power to this regular wire at the starter energizes the starter-mounted solenoid, which then mechanically pushes the bendix out to engage the fly-wheel.

Now, when the bendix is fully extended, that is, fully extended and engaging the flywheel, the starter-mounted solenoid closes a set of internal contacts. You can't see these contacts, they are inside the solenoid under the bakelite plastic end cap where the wires connect.

(trivia break: Did you know that, at one time, people used to replace just these contacts rather than the entire starter? You could buy a little kit for $5.00. That was before everything became disposable)

Ok, now I have to go back to the heavier cable. The heavy cable connects directly to the battery (+). The internal contacts connect this power to the starter motor itself.

So... turn key, fender-mounted relay engages, starter solenoid engages, bendix extends, contacts close, starter turns, car starts.

There is a method to this madness. You do NOT want the starter to turn until you know the bendix is engaged, otherwise you can trash the starter and flywheel.

With this understood, what is going on in this case?

It sounds like the bendix is engaging, or at least trying to. It would be good to verify this by opening the hood and listening for where the sound is coming from. But, my old ears are hearing some mechanical noise, so I am assuming this to be the case, that the bendix is at least trying to engage.

With this assumption, here are some possible causes for your problem:

1) A poor connection somewhere on the heavy cable. For this, I would start by looking at the starter where the heavy cable connects. It's a big lug on a big threaded stud with a nut. This connection can be ok and then go bad. What happens is, there might be a little film of grease on the wire lug and over time, the jolting starter, the engine vibration, this connection loosens up slightly. This connection has to be really good, otherwise power never gets to the contacts so the starter never turns. Take this connection apart after disconnecting the battery of course, and use some degreaser on the lug, the threaded stud, and the threads inside the nut. Then put it back together and tighten it up as tight as you dare. It will take some torque, but use a good wrench, you don't want to round the flats on the nut... the nut is soft metal.

2) Something has happened to the starter mounting where the bendix is no longer lined up to engage the flywheel properly. This can be as simple as a starter mounting bolt backing out. Again, a little grease on the threads, the jolt and vibration can back out a bolt. This gets a little more common with older engines because the bolts thread into the bell housing which, if I recall, is aluminum, so the threads can get a little wonky after the starter gets swapped out for the 10th time. I had this exact thing happen on my explorer where the bell housing threads went bad. As I recall, I ended up using a nut on the other side. A bit of a hack.

3) Power is not getting on the heavy cable on the battery end. Inspect the (+) clamp, peel back the insulation on the cable a little bit and inspect for corrosion. After you do this, apply a little grease or something to the wire you exposed, otherwise you will eventually get that corrosion... and you do not want to have to change that cable.

4) Defective starter.

I guess if I had this job, I would look at the battery connection first because it's a one-minute thing. If that was ok, I'd have to get access to the starter and check the other things, and if everything looked ok, I would get the starter tested.
We are on the same page for sure and my ears were along the same path as it being a mechanical problem towards the starter side of things since this issue recently just decided to happen I'm going to assume as of right now as someone else on this thread was telling me that it would be part of the charging starting triangle under the hood. Whenever there is sunny decent weather in the Pacific Northwest I will be poking my head and testing the starter
 






Update : so i tested the starter all seems fine there pushes and spins ..
Did notice the battery cables are a bit corrodid on the inside of the sheeting both positive and negative and the alternator wire fried on the end ..

20220312_134351.jpg 20220313_104146.jpg
 












Update : so i tested the starter all seems fine there pushes and spins ..
Did notice the battery cables are a bit corrodid on the inside of the sheeting both positive and negative and the alternator wire fried on the end ..

View attachment 427325View attachment 427326
After 2 month you just noticed THIS ? That’s absolutely hilarious imo :)) no disrespect. Sometimes one is focused on that one thing...

You’ll owe @Roadrunner777 a beer for sure 😃
I would check (or recheck) the terminals, make sure they are clean and tight. Check the cables for corrosion. It can be hidden under the plastic.
That single loud click has always been something in the battery-starter-fender solenoid triangle in my experience.
I would guess that the occasional shifter position/starting stuff is a separate issue that’s complicating it for you.
 






lol your fine i see no disrespect , this isnt my going to town rig and usually sits alot unless weekend wheeling , but yes other things have came up on the truck that had my attention . but yes i do need to but him a beer if hes anywhere around the PNW . but my question now is i have been trying to find the alternator cable to replace the blown out one in the pic but cane seem to find any . is it alright to just swap it with a 4 gauge wire or something
 






i have been trying to find the alternator cable to replace the blown out one in the pic but cane seem to find any . is it alright to just swap it with a 4 gauge wire or something
Cable from the alternator should also have fusible links inline.
 






Cable from the alternator should also have fusible links inline.
Well stock wire was basically a straight line from alternator to fender mounted starter relay.. with the wires for the voltage regulator of course but those were just taped together from manufacturer and stuffed into a plastic harness so it could be seperated.. realistically just need to replace the larger gauge wire that was fried on the end that was conneveted to the starter relay.. but doesnt look like i can get it anywhere other than a junk yard. . Worst case if junk yard is picked clean.. how can i make my own...
 



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Well stock wire was basically a straight line from alternator to fender
Would expect stock to have 1 single fusible link in line on the 92 between cable from alternator and fender mounted relay. Changed to 2 paralleled on the '94. If you don't have a grey section there , the link has been removed. Below is pic of my '94 orientation.
ngioqtw-jpg.jpg


4 gauge new stranded should be fine. Suggest you place a fusible link in line too. I have only seen 14 & 16 gauge link available in locally, which may burn prematurely. The 12 gauge can be purchased online. Don't know what the original size is supposed to be for 91-93 but at least 4 guages higher (thinner) than the normal cable is reccommended.
 






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