what to look for in a repair shop

[DarkFox1]

aint the plugs

took one out.. took a look, despite my dad saying its a fire/no fire situation when plugs fail, and the fact that we have had them changed proablly 40k miles ago.


it looks healthy.. I took out #2 on the passenger side.. I dont know the proper term for this cyl. cos I dont know fords firing order.

I'm sorry for the blur, my camera can't focus on small things it seems

 

[DarkFox1]

ok.. so the diagnosis seems to be... my fuel/air is off -4% at idle.. long term.. now thats to say that it coul dbe worse in short term upon higher throttle right? I suppose one could prove or disprove this with an odbII scanner

but if its doing it is not the issue personally, the longterm seems to be enough proof that its rich..

so what I have: its not the cats, not the maf,not the plugs or wires, probablly not the fuel filter

what that leaves me with: compression, computer problem, injectors dirty or malfuntioning, FPR, or maybe even a fuel pump? does any of this sound like something I can exclude based on my symptoms?

symptoms would simply be that its gettring terrible mileage, and accelerating very slow, and it smells like sulfter upon heavy accel, all in all, its running rich.

 

[james t]

you can rule out the fuel pump. if its going out, it will run lean, not rich. id say check your fuel pressure. you can "rent" a fuel pressure guage at autozone. it should be around 35 psi @ idle. this is not a fool proof test, as i have seen bad FPR's show in tolerance readings at idle and go way out of tolerance above idle, but it should give you some idea. also, there is a big difference between a "sulpher" smell and a "rich" smell. sulpher smell is definately cats, and yours checked fine. i think you are describing smell as sulpher when it is really rich.

sulpher=rotten egg
rich=grandpa's 74 pickup

 

[DarkFox1]

smells like rotten eggs....


I looked into having an ODBII scan done today, tjhey want me to wait in line, no.. I'll call someone else

I was recommended to check my o2s but haven't yet

if the ODBII yeilds no results and the o2s come back fine,then I'll do the FPR.. its a PITA to get to.. and if thats fine.. its compression check time.

and if THATS fine..... then I'll go nuts

 

[james t]

i know this conflicts with your previous tests, but rotten egg smell is 99.99999% bad cat. rich smell is nothing like a rotten egg smell...

also, its fair to say you may have both. if it's ran rich for a long time, the extra unburned fuel in the exhaust destroyed the cat.

 

[DarkFox1]

yes, but.. the backpressure test said the lines were wide open.. could the o2 be doing something and making it act like bad cats?

I found a place today that will do an ODBII scan for $50.. I hope they want me to drive it.. shops always baby my car and say its fine.. if you dont try go outrun a rock, you wont get anywhere.

I am an aggressive driver, I know this.. but thats no excuse to assume that my driving is causing the problems, and that its fine because they never broke 2k rpm.

btw, if long term fuel trim is -4%.. would that mean that at idle.. its running 4% rich? also.. in short term fuel trim.. would this % differ? and it would change along the RPM curve right? I'd like to see a printout of my ODBII scan, but I dont konw if they will be able to do that.... can they?

 

[DarkFox1]

scratch that.. I've been going around for the past 3 hours trying to locate a dealer, talking to various shops about potential problems.. most of them say the same things..

1. maf
2. FPR
3. in tank fuel pump

they dont know which of these three, and wont check my car out (I can't leave it with them today anyway) but say that my long term richness shows that its running lean in the high end and compensating for it... and these 3 items could possiblly be the culprits..

so.. how can I check these myself? cos the damn shops wont..

BTW if the ford dealership ever takes taht condescending tone wiht me again I'm going to curse them out. I'm sick and tired of Corey and his croney Gary, they dont like me and go out of their way to smart off at me about it somehow being all ME that the cars acting up.

 

[james t]

go to Autozone. "rent" a fuel pressure test guage. basically, you give them $30 or so and they give you a guage. when you are done, take it back to get all of your deposit back. checking fuel pressure is as easy as checking air in your tires... the valve is on the fuel rail right on top of the engine, and you remove NOTHING to get to it... this would be a good start...

 

[Robert]

Your short term fuel trims are current operating parameters. They vary constantly while your engine is running. Mine will vary from +/- 5% depending on whether or not I am stepping on the gas or coasting. The STFT will vary greatly. The long term fuel trim is basically a "look-up" table. If your PCM detects your engine is running rich, it will go to a leaner section of the table (evidence of a negative LTFT). Now according to my Ford CD, the range for LTFT is +/- 20%. The LTFT is not an instantaneous reading like the STFT is. It is determined by many hours of driving time. Another thing you can do if you get access to a scanner is disconnect your battery for at least 5 minutes when your engine is cold. Then start it up with the scanner hooked up paying particular attention to your short term fuel trims and O2 values. When you disconnect your battery you will clear out the learned O2 calibration curves which will force it to start at a default setting. Start with a cold engine so that you can monitor when your O2 heaters turn on. Monitor your short term fuel trims to see if you are running rich under the default calibration curves. Both of your upstream O2 sensors should switch above and below 0.450 V at least every 3 seconds. Your downstream sensors should switch significantly slower. If they switch back and forth at the same rate as the upstream sensors, it indicates that you have a bad converter. An O2 sensor that doesn't switch means you have a bad O2 sensor, but in that case you would set off a DTC. Logical places to start O2 sensors, FPR and possibly get a second oppinion on your converters. If your downstream sensors switch as quickly as your upstream sensors and your exhaust smells like rotten eggs, you probably have a bad converter.

Also, just because a converter doesn't have any blockages doesn't mean it is OK. A converter can fail in one of two ways. One way is when the material inside gets loose and clogs up your exhaust path. The pressure test you had done would find that type of failure. The second way is when the insides are no longer effective. A quickly switching downstream O2 sensor would find that type of failure.

 

[DarkFox1]

would these o2 sensor errors possibly switch the CEL or throw any codes? the trucks going to the shop for trouble shooting tomorrow.. I explicitly told them not to fix anything however.

 

[Robert]

Yes, one of the tests the PCM does every time you start it is compare the switching ratio between the upstream and downstream O2 sensors. If the ratio gets too close to 1, it sets the CEL. If the upstream sensor doesn't switch quick enough, it will set a CEL. If the O2 heaters don't come on, it will set the CEL. If the O2 sensor reads less than 0V or more than 1.2V it will set the CEL. There are probably 25 or so more conditions that will set the CEL as well.

 

[DarkFox1]

well, its in a shop right now.. having the fuel system checked, o2s, FPR, etc.

I told them not to fix anything, just to find the problem

 

[DarkFox1]

the phantom trailer

well, of course.. they found nothing wrong.. $200 spent on diagnostics and not 1 thing out of the ordinary. fuel pressure was fine, o2s fine, maf fine, air filter clean, cats open, TB clean and gum free, no vaccume problems, the fuel pump is fine the fuel filter is clean, the plugs and wires are good and the coil packs are functioning properly.

I'm done.. I'm ready to say theres nothing wrong with it.. and blame it on a complete lack of power on fords part, the truck was not endowed with the power it needs to pull itself around adequatley. I guess I'll have to do some more HP mods in the future.

according to my calculates (236.5 miles to a tank) it got 11.5 mpg, but perhaps I'm jumping the gun, maybe it only used 15 gallons.. putting it at 16mpg..

I cannot beleive these cars were made this slow, and that the govt allows them to continue to make gas hogging v8s with this complete and utter lack of any power what so ever. I cannot beleive the difficulty this thing is/has been giving me for the past 2 years being slow as dirt, yet there being NOTHING WRONG.. one would think that it was me in the beginning at purchace that I did not notice these items, and therefore thought it was just a newly formed problem. The 5.0 is miserable engine, and the v8 explorers and mountaineers are far too slow for adequate driving conditions.

anyone know where I can get a supercharger for less than the price of a used car? if not.. then I may have to consider some form of vehicle replacment.

btw if anyone feels the need to interject, go right ahead.. but my car is not a lemon. The 5.0 I test drove was a good deal faster.. but it was still not fast enough. Its probablly juts the added weight I have on mine.. heavier rims, a grille guard, taillight guards, my fat selt, and my system..

 

[aldive]

Have you ever let someone else ( not a repair facility ), a friend who is an enthuasist drive your truck? What did they say?

 

[DarkFox1]

everyone except me and my dad and the transmission shop says it drives just fine with "plenty of power"

 

[aldive]

Wgat are you expecting?

 

[DarkFox1]

0-60 in 10 sec or less, 14mpg minnimum

as far as numbers.. but the numbers aren't as big an issue as the feeling, if it felt like it was moving alittle easier.. instead of dragging around like a zombie the 0-60 could be higher and still be fine

 

[Robert]

Any chance the dealer drove your Mountaineer hard and compared it to a used one on their lot? As a minimum I would have them do that. That was the only way I could get my dealer to admit that my transmission wasn't shifting correctly. I had it in seven times with various tests ran each time. Every time they said that everything was working properly. When I finally was able to convince the Service Advisor to test drive another one, he was willing to agree that there was something wrong with mine. He called Ford and they told him I needed a new update to my PCM. He claimed that my programming in my PCM changed, altering my shift points. I didn't buy it so I did some digging. I found that a screw the dealer replaced a couple months earlier that held my cruise control cable to my throttle body was not put in the correct location. What happened was it prevented my throttle cable from being pulled the last 3/4". Once I drilled out the broken screw and installed the cruise control cable screw in the hole everything was back to normal.

Sometimes it takes looking at the not so obvious (something dealers don't seem to be capable of doing). If you have had any work done on the throttle body or throttle cable take a look around. I found mine by disconnecting my cruise control cable from my throttle body and then moving my throttle cable by hand. With the cruise control cable disconnected my throttle opened up a lot more. Also don't overlook a floor mat preventing your throttle pedal from going down all the way either. Look at your pedal and the cable and make sure something isn't broken there either.

 

[james t]

Re: the phantom trailer

Originally posted by DarkFox1
I'm done.. I'm ready to say theres nothing wrong with it.. and blame it on a complete lack of power on fords part, the truck was not endowed with the power it needs to pull itself around adequatley. I guess I'll have to do some more HP mods in the future. I cannot beleive these cars were made this slow, and that the govt allows them to continue to make gas hogging v8s with this complete and utter lack of any power what so ever. I cannot beleive the difficulty this thing is/has been giving me for the past 2 years being slow as dirt, yet there being NOTHING WRONG.. one would think that it was me in the beginning at purchace that I did not notice these items, and therefore thought it was just a newly formed problem. The 5.0 is miserable engine, and the v8 explorers and mountaineers are far too slow for adequate driving conditions.

dude, you need to stick to your ideas. you bunce from "my X is screwed up" to "there's nothing wrong, 5.0's suck" all in the same day. you have also WRONGLY advised others several times that intake/exhaust is a waste of money, and have never explained that your thoughts are tainted by having poor results with YOUR truck. when you badmouth the 5.0 by saying things like they are underpowered, have crappy trannies, you make others think "well, im not gonna get one now". fact is, you have the only 5.0 on this board that gets that kind of milage, and you are the ONLY one that has a 5.0 that runs that slow. the rest of us are happy with ours. im sorry that the shops cant find what is wrong. this does not mean that there is no problem. we have all told you your truck is screwed up. problem is, today you believe us, tommorrow you dont. dont badmouth all 5.0's just because you have had a bad experience with one. ford did not make my 5.0 anything like yours... and finally, once again, though i know it will not help anything...your truck is screwed up. i dont care what any of the shops find, 11mpg and above 12 second 0-60 is not right.

 

[DarkFox1]

you know its messed up, I THINK its messed up, my dad knows its messed up.. but every time I go to a shop I get a "its fine that will be $100" I'm running up a bill and not fixing anything.. they're telling me its fine and responsive and the gas mileage sounds normal.. hearing that over and over and over leaves me with no conclusion but to assume that the 5.0 is running as it shoould be, despite the differences noted between this truck and the 5.0 that I test drove. I still beleive that the kkm and flowmaster yeild no vast improvements over the stock setup, infact I am beginning to wonder if one or both of them are my problems. Perhaps I just didn't do something right. All I know is, I dont like the speed that my vehicle has, and I do not ever recall a period in the past 5 years that I thought it was specifically powerful. Anyone I talk to that doesn't own an suv tells me that I shouldn't expect anything in the form of performance based on weight and areodynamics.. accompanied with only 210hp. I am not trying to persuade people one way or the other, but based on my observations, when someone asks a question about a product I've worked with and saw negative/no results from, I'm going to try to tell them my experiences with the product. I was just reading a magazine on the pot (best time to read ya know) about 1/4 mile times/speeds based on mods, a drop in filter on an 87 camaro only saw a .14 second time improvement for both exhaust and a k&n filter kit, i dont see how one could feel such a difference. It does not mean that there ISN'T one, it simply means that there isn't a NOTICABLE one.. of which I have seen.


I am also contemplating whether or not the entire computer is bad.. bad as in, expecting the wrong things and therefore not throwing any codes. The shop did not give me a print out of todays work because they said they did not have a printer. that did not stop them from charging me $60 for the test however. I'm beginning to wonder.. IF the computer is the problem.. and its something in the way the computer is reading things.. could a performance chip possiblly fix the problem by changing the expectations of the system? like if the computer by default says use.. I dunno a 14/1 ratio or something for fuel/air, and its wrong.. and I pop in a chip that says 10/1 .. would that "fix" the problem at hand? this is all very hypothetical.

The shop cleaned my TB today.. I know the manual says not to.. and he told me he knew this, but that he was a prof. and knew how to do it so it was ok. The pedal moves easier.. but the truck still doesn't go anywhere. If you thought something wasn't right.. and every person you asked except for a few friends you know told you it was fine, what would you beleive?