Who's good at diagnosing using PIDs?

[jon_s_brady]

I had to replace the pistons with oversize pistons to match the rings and bore. They were the press-fit kind so I had the machinist that did the block and heads also press the pins in to connect the rods to the piston heads.

The machinist is a drag racing enthusiast who has his own auto machining business. While I must confess I didn't know this was a possibility I'd be very surprised if this guy didn't know that I couldn't put new pistons on old con-rods. But then again...

 

[2000StreetRod]

new pistons on old rods

There's no problem with installing new pistons on the old connecting rods as long as they are oriented correctly. Your engine builder probably followed a shop manual and did it correctly. Did you place the piston/rod assemblies in the block correctly?

"NOTE: Position the piston with the indentation arrow toward the front of the cylinder block."

What about crankshaft grinding? Were either the rod or main journals reground? If so, did you install the correct size bearings? Just a thought.

 

[jon_s_brady]

The pistons had an arrow on one side saying "Front" so I dutifully pointed them to the front of the engine. What has me worried now is that the company that made the pistons didn't mention this pointing one way on the RHS and the opposite way on the LHS. I installed Sealed Power H1123CP (75mm) pistons on the stocks rods. I'm hoping they meant the front of the engine for both sides...

Also, I did not change the mains or rod bearings. Though worn they were well within tolerances according to a plastigage.

I have a clamp on ammeter coming tomorrow and I'll check my starter again. I read somewhere that you can check a starter and if it rotates it doesn't guarantee that it's okay since it might not be under load. So I'll crank the engine and measure the amps in the starter wires to see if that's the issue. If not, it's time to pull the engine again...

 

[2000StreetRod]

assembly instructions

What did you use to guide your engine assembly? If you want, PM me your email address and I'll send you the 2005 Mustang SOHC V6 assembly instructions. They will either reassure you that you did nothing wrong or make you think of something you did wrong. Unfortunately, they don't include assembling the pistons to the connecting rods.

Did you install the flexplate spacer between the flexplate and the block or between the flexplate and the transmission. Maybe the flexplate is rubbing against the rear of the block and dragging down the starter motor.

 

[jon_s_brady]

Lol



Dale, I had actually asked for and you sent me the Mustang assembly guide a couple of months back! It was my checklist as I put the engine back together. I also made sure I had the spacer correctly between the engine and transmission.

 

[2000StreetRod]

dirt plate vs flexplate spacer

. . . I also made sure I had the spacer correctly between the engine and transmission.

Are you confusing the dirt plate with the flexplate spacer? The photo below shows the flexplate spacer that goes between the flexplate and the rear of the block.

It may be possible to install the spacer on the transmission side of the flexplate depending upon the length of the transmission input shaft. However, when the flexplate bolts were tightened the flexplate would be distorted. Also, the flexplate would be more forward than normal and might rub on the block.

 

[jon_s_brady]

Yep, made sure the spacer as you've shown is between the engine and the flywheel and not between the flywheel and the torque converter. In fact the flywheel would've been in contact with the engine block without it in there.

 

[2000StreetRod]

about out of ideas

I'm about out of ideas for why the crank speed is slow. I assume that the cylinder walls have not rusted during the time they were bored until the engine was assembled.

However, I would check for other problems before pulling the engine. With fuel injection and electronic ignition if the engine will crank even slowly it should start. Pull the spark plugs and inspect them. Are they wet and gapped correctly? Did you install Bosch plugs? Check the compression. Recheck the spark plugs wires are correct from coil pack to cylinders. #1 is passenger side, front of engine. #6 is driver side, rear of engine. Make sure there is fuel at the Schrader valve. Since the engine didn't fire on starting spray I would suspect ignition or compression problems.

 

[jon_s_brady]

Dale, a quick question on engine removal as I ponder what to do next in my troubleshooting...

When removing the engine, is there any reason why you couldn't pull it out with the torque converter still attached to the flex plate? Since the torque converter is simply slid onto the splines of the transmission but bolted to the flex plate, I'm wondering if there's enough room with the radiator removed to slide the engine forward enough to disengage the torque converter from the spindle...

I'd still remove it for engine installation so I wouldn't risk damaging the splines as the engine was popped in.

Just wondering...

 

[2000StreetRod]

others have done it

When the engine is seized that's the only way to remove the engine. Be careful to align the crankshaft axis with the transmission input shaft axis until separated to keep from damaging the transmission seal. You may have to remove the engine mount brackets from the block to keep from raising the engine.

 

[jon_s_brady]

A quick update: I checked the starter's amperage draw on cranking - 244.1A. So that seems to be in order. Tonight is a compression test and then dependent upon that it'll be checking the timing and then possibly pulling the engine later this week.

 

[rickybobby]

244 seems kinda high. Typically with a v-6 you should see around 175 amps

 

[rmcknight]

A quick update: I checked the starter's amperage draw on cranking - 244.1A. So that seems to be in order. Tonight is a compression test and then dependent upon that it'll be checking the timing and then possibly pulling the engine later this week.

Remember, You will still get proper compression if your 360 deg out.

You know what i'd do if i were you, firing order is:
Firing order is 1-4 2-5 3-6.

The only cross combo im sure of is 1 to 5, the others are educated guesses.

Try wiring up at if its 360 out and see if it runs:
So on the coil pack, put old5 into 1, put old3 into 4 etc:
1 5
4 3
2 6
5 1
3 4
6 2

So in effect at TDC, 1 and 5 are normally fully up, tell 5 to fire instead of 1.

Here is a pic:
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://rockledge.home.comcast.net/FiringOrder1.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/447604-firing-order.html&h=282&w=432&sz=6&tbnid=v4pghLVV4MCLmM:&tbnh=71&tbnw=109&zoom=1&usg=__QthaYf09LbLeFE7sJoIaL9tPPj8=&docid=7kBo7qFYj5CpZM&sa=X&ei=gXbwUdTmNqafiAfU54DQBA&ved=0CEsQ9QEwBA&dur=15613#imgdii=v4pghLVV4MCLmM%3A%3B5OF8DSStJY-YzM%3Bv4pghLVV4MCLmM%3A

 

[2000StreetRod]

CMP sensor determines compression stroke

When I put this thing back together I was reading everywhere that you had to be aware of the timing...so I made triply sure that the crankshaft was at TDC and the two camshafts both had their offset grooves on the low side.

I'm intrigued by the comment about 360 though. The crankshaft rotates 360 each time it does a rotation. This means that each time it goes around the #1 piston is at the top of it's travel. At the next complete rotation the piston will be at the top again but if it was on compression the first time it should be on exhaust this time. As I understand it, so long as both camshafts are in the same phase - both slots up or both slots down, then the engine will run. Is that the purpose of the CMP and CKP to make sure they're both in sync?

The sole purpose of the camshaft position sensor is to notify the PCM if the #1 piston is on the compression or exhaust stroke. The PCM uses the crankshaft position sensor to determine when to energize the injectors and when to fire the spark plugs. If both camshaft timing slots are either above the camshaft axis or below the camshaft axis when #1 piston is at TDC then the timing cannot be 360 degrees off. However, if you used the wrong mark on the balancer to determine TDC the timing could be off by that amount. The mark for TDC is the line next to the "0". There's another line next to the "10".

Did you time the camshafts after installing the balancer? If not, how did you determine TDC for #1 piston?

Did you use the correct mark?

 

[rmcknight]

I haven't seen the camshaft sensor, but is it possible it thinks its 360 out? and thus spark in the wrong phase? Can you put the left camshaft on the right by mistake or something?

Hes probably not out of time by the crankshaft.

 

[2000StreetRod]

CMP sensor nub

I haven't seen the camshaft sensor, but is it possible it thinks its 360 out? and thus spark in the wrong phase? Can you put the left camshaft on the right by mistake or something?

Hes probably not out of time by the crankshaft.

Only the left camshaft has the "nub" for the CMP sensor - blue arrow below.

I think it is visible thru the oil fill tube after removing the cap.

Jon, did you use the OTC 6488 tool kit to time the camshafts?

8 - 6479, crankshaft holding tool
If so, did you time both camshafts while keeping the crankshaft from rotating with the holding tool that fits on the balancer?

 

[jon_s_brady]

Guys, first off...thanks to all of you for great suggestions and assistance with this troubleshooting...I don't feel so alone...

Rickybobby, your the first person that's given me a specific number for the "average" amps drawn. Here's a page that I'm taking the "no more than " limit from. http://www.mafak.com/2008/05/starter-circuit-diagnosis.html

It suggests no more than 250 for a V6 gas (petrol) engine.

Dale, I just saw your latest post and I'll go through it now.

McKnight, my driver's side (left) camshaft has a nub on it that is the camshaft sensor which is on the LHS valve cover. The sprockets for the timing are also slightly different between the two sides so I am confident I didn't mix up the camshafts. You mentioned the 360 out of phase again but I as far as I can tell 360 is the same as 0 at least as far as the crankshaft is concerned. The key to success as I read the guides such as the Mustang assembly guide the Dale sent me is that the crankshaft has to be at TDC, the LHS camshaft must have the timing nub in the uppermost almost vertical position and the groove in the RHS cams rear must Beas the groove on the LHS rear of the cam (the groove should be parallel to the surface of the head and below the centerline of the camshaft.

I didn't get to work on it last night...hopefully tonight. Seattle is having sunny days with 80 degrees...you can't squander weather like that around this place...

 

[jon_s_brady]

After reading Dale's note:

I re-built the engine from the bottom up so the crankshaft was in and then I installed the harmonic balancer so I could see the timing mark. I saw the 0 and 10 marks. I actually filled the lines/indentations with bright yellow paint so I could see them more easily with a timing light later on.

I didn't use the OTC 6488 kit. What I did was...

For the tensioners I countersunk a screw in to hold the piston in place in my old tensioner.when I screwed it in it prevented the action of tightening the upper cam sprockets from moving the timing chains.

To line the camshafts up I rotated each camshaft into the proper position by eye using the sprocket bolt. I then took some digital calipers and measured the distance from the face of the head to the top of the camshaft's groove on each side of the groove. I was able to get the delta down to 0.020" difference in the distance from the face of the head to the upper edge of the groove on each side of both cams. Once a camshaft was in place is used two sets of vice grips, one on each side of the cam to hold it in place. There's a picture somewhere in the forum of someone that used the vice grip method.

So having ensured the tightening of the cam sprocket bolt wouldn't move the timing chain as well as holding the cam in position I tightened the sprocket bolts to the specified torque.

I am reasonably confident that my method resulted in the cams being held in the proper alignment.

 

[2000StreetRod]

good assembly

Everything that you've posted so far sounds like you assembled the engine and timed it correctly. I have no direct experience with the 3rd Gen Explorer but I'm puzzled and intrigued with no problem.

As I stated earlier the engine needs compression, fuel and ignition to run. You've confirmed with your timing light that you have ignition but not that it's timed correctly. One of the PIDs indicates that there is fuel pressure and you've sprayed starting fluid into the manifold which made no difference. You haven't checked compression yet and I encourage you to do so before pulling the engine. According to Rock Auto your engine has an IACV similar to mine but an electronic throttle control. An easy thing to try is to determine if the MAF sensor is reading air flow when the starter cranks.

On my 2000 if there is a PATS incompatible key in the ignition the starter cranks but the PCM disables the fuel injectors. Make sure there is no rapid flashing THEFT light when the starter cranks.

What type of spark plugs did you install and what is the gap?

I suggest that you confirm there is fuel at the rail by depressing the Schrader valve.

 

[imp]

Possible issue with a bearing/bearings, likely rod, I've seen a sheared tang get caught between shell and rod, could barely turn the crank. imp