Exhaust leaks, Ford Explorers and the environment.

[Sixonemale]

Ford's proposed repairs for exhaust odor complaints in the PIU and civilian Explorers are the same, as detailed most recently in TSB17-0044 at
http://www.mhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/TSB-17-0044-Exhaust-Odor-in-Vehicle.pdf

Dealers are supposed to visually inspect and add sealant as needed around any upfitting holes but also around body seams and holes that Ford left unsealed during assembly, including around the wheel wells, rear door, tail lights and underbody.

The TSB also calls for the replacement of some original Ford parts with newer ones of different design (fasteners for the spoiler now have a gas-tight washer, rear air extractors have new design, and exhaust tips now have a 2nd hole facing down) and reprogramming of the HVAC.

This shows Ford recognizes that there are fixable problems with its both its original design and assembly that may be contributing to the "odor" complaints. Ford is not publicizing this, of course, but as of August it is telling dealers that they should fully refund any civilian Explorer owners who've paid for odor-related repairs.

http://www.mhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Advance-Notice-Supplement-2.pdf

I think a very expensive recall is coming soon.

I tend to agree about the potential Recall. An inspection of all fifth generation Explorers should be required and sealant added as needed or required. It's all about QA/QC related to how consistently or inconsistently these vehicles were built.

 

[Albert (CO Toxicologist)]

Here's another thing to think about. I have, on a few occasions, smelled the 'rotten egg smell' while under hard acceleration during WOT. Doesn't do it every time and I can't seem to replicate it when I want to. Even weirder is, despite my smelling it with others in the car, nobody else has ever smelled it. Not my wife. Not my in-laws, etc. So it seems that it's something only certain people pick up on. (And I smelled it prior to learning of the issue. In fact I discovered it was a 'problem' after Googling it after it happened a couple of times.)

.

Human sense of smell varies widely, with the threshold of detection for any particular odor typically ranging over 2 to 3 orders of magnitude. Also highly variable is how long it takes people to get desensitized to any particular odor (to go nose blind). Human odor detection threshholds usually decline as we age but for women they increase during PMS and pregnancy when they make more CO naturally (from the breakdown of heme proteins by heme oxygenase). Many poisons can affect smell, including CO poisoning, which can shut down your sense of smell completely after acute high exposure but which causes odor hypersensitivity after chronic low-level exposure.

So even though CO is odorless, any significant exposure affects how smell (or don't smell) everything else. Same for your vision and hearing, which may be lost completely for some time after acute CO exposure, but which may become hypersensitive after chronic exposure.

This type of multi-sensory sensitivity is a hallmark of tissue CO poisoning and has no other known cause.

 

[Halford1]

how much would it cost to reseal in massive recall of all 5th Generation Explorers?

 

[peterk9]

Millions $$. If a recall came out I'm not sure I would take advantage of it since I've not noticed the issue or any effects and would be more concerned about what all the necessary repairs might do to the vehicle.

Peter

 

[Halford1]

ok break it down to ONE replacement?

 

[J_C]

^ One replacement what? Unless there are exhaust manifold cracks it could take 1/2 hour to throw one on a lift, examine and plug any holes or gaps... negligible material costs and 1/2 hr labor. The dealership would probably lose more in income from other customers they couldn't service because their bays were in use doing this work.

 

[Jon M]

ok break it down to ONE replacement?

It varies, because there are two procedures, and the first one applies to all, while the second one only applies to 3.5L N/A vehicles. For step one, a few hundred, for step two, probably another few hundred, depending on what exactly they're doing, which I'm not really clear on. They only talk about the exhaust tips, but the parts list on the TSB calls for muffler assemblies.

Call it under $500 for step one only vehicles, and under $1000 for the rest.

 

[Albert (CO Toxicologist)]

It varies, because there are two procedures, and the first one applies to all, while the second one only applies to 3.5L N/A vehicles. For step one, a few hundred, for step two, probably another few hundred, depending on what exactly they're doing, which I'm not really clear on. They only talk about the exhaust tips, but the parts list on the TSB calls for muffler assemblies.

Call it under $500 for step one only vehicles, and under $1000 for the rest.

In class action settlement , Ford agreed to pay for $150 worth of phase 1 repairs and if customer remains unsatisfied (!), another $500 for phase 2 repairs including new exhaust parts. After that, if you are still unsatisfied, Ford agrees not to contest if you file a complaint via your state's Lemon Law.

 

[blwnsmoke]

I nearly referenced this in my comment on the other thread regarding this subject. Out of 1.3 million vehicles there are (at least) 2,719 reports. That's less than .003 percent of vehicles. That's a miniscule number. Granted, I know the number is likely higher than that, but still a very small number.

Here's another thing to think about. I have, on a few occasions, smelled the 'rotten egg smell' while under hard acceleration during WOT. Doesn't do it every time and I can't seem to replicate it when I want to. Even weirder is, despite my smelling it with others in the car, nobody else has ever smelled it. Not my wife. Not my in-laws, etc. So it seems that it's something only certain people pick up on. (And I smelled it prior to learning of the issue. In fact I discovered it was a 'problem' after Googling it after it happened a couple of times.)

Not trying to defend Ford or anything like that. But I do feel sorry for their engineers, because based on numbers this appears to be a needle in a haystack problem and I can imagine trying to track it down is extremely frustrating to all involved.

I agree with you on the %.. however, the whole needle in a haystack has no weight. Ford has vought bsck several of these from members on here. They could easily ship the problem ones bought back to Dearborn or Chicago and use those for testing to figure out what is going on

 

[Sixonemale]

I nearly referenced this in my comment on the other thread regarding this subject. Out of 1.3 million vehicles there are (at least) 2,719 reports. That's less than .003 percent of vehicles. That's a miniscule number. Granted, I know the number is likely higher than that, but still a very small number.

No disrespect, but I can manipulate statistics to say anything I want them to say, the stats above are close to meaningless. There are 2,719 reports or complaints, that has nothing to do with how many Explorers have a potential exhaust/cabin problem. How many owners drive their Explorers at WOT, the vast majority I'll bet do not. How many owners are driving their Explorers at WOT with internal ventilation on recirculate? How many Explorer owners are driving there Explorers over 40 MPH with internal ventilation on recirculate for long periods of time?

Rather than base a problem on a number of complaints received, they should use a sample population size that is representative of 1.3 million vehicles sold from 2011 to 2017, maybe that's 300, 500, or 700 Explorers etc., who knows, and then test each one at various driving conditions like at WOT with internal ventilation on recirculate, etc. Concluding the total number of Explorers that potentially have this problem based on complaints is absurd, especially knowing that certain operational conditions must be met for it to occur.

 

[supr squirrel]

Rather than base a problem on a number of complaints received, they should use a sample population size that is representative of 1.3 million vehicles sold from 2011 to 2017, maybe that's 300, 500, or 700 Explorers etc., who knows, and then test each one at various driving conditions like at WOT with internal ventilation on recirculate, etc. Concluding the total number of Explorers that potentially have this problem based on complaints is absurd, especially knowing that certain operational conditions must be met for it to occur.

'No disrespect', but what you're asking for is absurd. There is not a snowballs chance in hell of it ever happening. Is your goal to bankrupt Ford because you smell the catalytic converter from time to time? Because it sure sounds like it.

Some of the responses here are reasonable and well thought out. Others appear to be nothing more than sharks circling blood in the water hoping to....you know what, never mind. Have a nice night.

 

[J_C]

No disrespect, but I can manipulate statistics to say anything I want them to say, the stats above are close to meaningless. There are 2,719 reports or complaints, that has nothing to do with how many Explorers have a potential exhaust/cabin problem. How many owners drive their Explorers at WOT, the vast majority I'll bet do not. How many owners are driving their Explorers at WOT with internal ventilation on recirculate? How many Explorer owners are driving there Explorers over 40 MPH with internal ventilation on recirculate for long periods of time?

Rather than base a problem on a number of complaints received, they should use a sample population size that is representative of 1.3 million vehicles sold from 2011 to 2017, maybe that's 300, 500, or 700 Explorers etc., who knows, and then test each one at various driving conditions like at WOT with internal ventilation on recirculate, etc. Concluding the total number of Explorers that potentially have this problem based on complaints is absurd, especially knowing that certain operational conditions must be met for it to occur.

You're stretching it a bit when you state that the # of complaints have nothing to do with the problem, but I suspect it's even the opposite of what you're implying.

Fewer vehicles have had CO detected than the # of complaints. That's far more relevant data than samples with no complaints.

You say you can manipulate statistics but fail to accept that what you replied to had no manipulation. Obviously that does not mean a problem does not exist, but it seems far more applicable to service vehicles WITH the complaints and track the cause that way, rather than spend the time instead on random samples.

This seems to be the most expedient way to determine which vehicles are at risk and issue a recall to get them taken care off as a priority instead of millions of paranoid people bogging down service departments to the point where people who actually HAVE a problem, can't get their vehicle serviced sooner rather than later.

 

[XLT16]

Guess I must be part of that 99.99% , just 1 of 1.3m who haven't reported an issue. I have never smelled any exhaust in my vehicle nor rotten eggs etc. despite 2 yrs of ownership and many long trips of thousands of miles. Never felt light headed or sensed an issue with Co2 bleeding into the cabin. If I did I would be the first to complain.

The internet tends to hype these things out of proportion to the problem, this no different. Given the holes the police put in their vehicles to fit all those lights etc, the way they use the vehicle. not surprised they would have issues. Sit in a idling vehicle for lengthy periods with the A/C on as the police often do , with exterior holes drilled in it not sealed, in hot humid climates, what a surprise the carbon monoxide leaks in, manifolds overheat and crack. I doubt this will end up being a widespread recall. Ford may need to re-think a few things about their interceptor models. Perhaps some users are using the vehicles in similar fashion and cracking the manifolds, maybe there is a flaw , using re-circulate on the A/C seems to increase the exposure to CO2. Sure the engineers will figure it out. The numbers don't bear out a widespread problem 2700 complaints on a base of 1.3m. Lot of fretting and froing over it, small number of people actually filling out the complaint form.

 

[Sixonemale]

First off, let’s get the percentages correct, 2,719/1,300,000 x 100 = 0.21% of Explorers may have an exhaust problem based on complaints. I have no idea whether those complaints are from 2011, 2012…. or 2017 model Explorers. So, what I’m saying is to take sample population size of Explorers over all of the model years which numbers I referenced were much less than the number of complaints, 300, 500, 700, etc., to find out if this problem has the potential to exist on all or just some of the fifth generation Explorers built. Again, certain operational conditions must be met for this problem to occur, WOT, ventilation on recirculate, etc. I don’t think any of us owners have a good handle on how uniform or uniform this problem is on fifth generation Explorers. We won’t know until Ford makes a clear statement of fact stating the consistency or inconsistency of the problem.

If this is such a rare issue as some claim, it should be very easy for Ford to send out post cards to all Explorer owners, according to VIN, stating that their Explorer either has an exhaust issue or not.

 

[XLT16]

First off, let’s get the percentages correct, 2,719/1,300,000 x 100 = 0.21% of Explorers may have an exhaust problem based on complaints..

So I am one of the 99.79% who doesn't seem to have an issue, why I thank you for that correction, silly me. I would say that those numbers make this a pretty rare issue. The majority of the complaints have come from police according to media reports, including that 3 crashes have occurred , 2 of those 3 by police officers , not regular Explorer owners.

Ford is working on it, a variety of conditions being found both in police vehicles and other customers. Fact is they have a TSB for it if you feel you have a problem. The NHTSA is on it, they don't seem to have a clear cut finding yet either. Why would Ford contact 1.3 m owners unless there is some common issue found, so far that seems not the case. If you have a problem contact your dealer. Why would anyone wait for Ford to reach out to them to explain there could be a problem if you can smell fumes or odours in the cabin or suffer from headaches etc..

 

[Sixonemale]

Why would Ford contact 1.3 m owners unless there is some common issue found, so far that seems not the case.

Because you have a 2016, you may not be aware of the class action lawsuit or settlement underway out of the US District Court for The Southern District of Florida where post cards were mailed out to owners:

www.ExplorerExhaustSettlement.com

Post card:

https://eclaim.kccllc.net/caclaimforms/fsk/Documents/FSK_NOT_shortForm.pdf

 

[J_C]

^ Which is not a reason for Ford to contact 1.3m owners. Whatever the evidence proves in that case, should define the owners who have a vehicle potentially defective (if any) and who should be notified. I do not feel that should be the end of testing, but should be the beginning of an orderly notification process.

As the owner of a 2014, (or of any product for that matter, doesn't even need to be a motor vehicle) I don't want to be notified of issues that don't affect mine, then waste time wondering, worrying, investigating, for no reason.

 

[Sixonemale]

^ Which is not a reason for Ford to contact 1.3m owners. Whatever the evidence proves in that case, should define the owners who have a vehicle potentially defective (if any) and who should be notified. I do not feel that should be the end of testing, but should be the beginning of an orderly notification process.

As the owner of a 2014, (or of any product for that matter, doesn't even need to be a motor vehicle) I don't want to be notified of issues that don't affect mine, then waste time wondering, worrying, investigating, for no reason.

Glad to see that you are 100% confident that your '14 Explorer does not leak exhaust into the cabin under any or all operating scenarios. On the other hand since the fifth generation Explorer does have third row seating where young children could be sitting, it's probably best that Ford be very careful and/or probably conservative with notifications.

 

[J_C]

^ Similar could be said about any vehicle or even any non-vehicle environment, if one wants to be paranoid.

However I do find it odd that you'd refer to 3rd row seating? You don't suppose children sit 2nd row in a 5th gen explorer or any other vehicle? Or did you think CO could somehow find its way to a 3rd row but not the 2nd and 1st row? Makes no sense in an open compartment vehicle.

 

[Sixonemale]

^ Similar could be said about any vehicle or even any non-vehicle environment, if one wants to be paranoid.

However I do find it odd that you'd refer to 3rd row seating? You don't suppose children sit 2nd row in a 5th gen explorer or any other vehicle? Or did you think CO could somehow find its way to a 3rd row but not the 2nd and 1st row? Makes no sense in an open compartment vehicle.

I'm looking at this through the eyes of Ford and that high level executives are paid to be a bit paranoid.

If exhaust is making it's way through the back end via a vacuum effect, concentrations could vary, but the third row in theory should get the first dose of exhaust, but I'm not sure where the highest concentration of exhaust is over time or perhaps it could be semi uniform.