42 pages an no legitimate results, And I'll tell you why.
Thank you Gijoecam for actually know why the dyno testing is important. Apparently nobody has ever heard of a rolling road dyno. Funny high school and college kids have been doing this for 20 years to tune there vehicles yet not a single soul with HHO has Really? 42 pages of, I'm trying this, tried that, on my 5th kit, ect ect.
It's is clear that people who do this do not know how a computer on the car determines how much fuel is to be injected. This is why you have sensors on the vehicle. These are the people that still by the 30hp chips that are nothing more than a 25 cent 4.7K Ohm resister to plug into the IAT sensor to try to fool the computer.
The whole theory and it's just that because will not see any testing to show the Air fuel ratio differences with the system on. For this systems therorized effect of making your car use less fuel the computer would have to magically demand less fuel and run the engine leaner than it is programed to do (Won't happen on a OBD-2 vehicle period. Your computer will put the car in limp home mode when it goes dangerously lean over any prolonged period of time and you will throw check engine codes such as lean bank 1 or lean bank 2. How do you guys not know this info?
There is a limit to how lean the engine can be run, as lean operation can significantly reduce the power output due to a reduction in the volumetric heating value of the air/fuel mixture.
Hydrogen has very low ignition energy. The amount of energy needed to ignite hydrogen is about one order of magnitude less than that required for gasoline. This enables hydrogen engines to ignite lean mixtures and ensures prompt ignition.
Unfortunately, the low ignition energy means that hot gases and hot spots on the cylinder can serve as sources of ignition, creating problems of premature ignition and flashback. Preventing this is one of the challenges associated with run-ning an engine on hydrogen. What does that mean?
When you turn these kits on your engine knock sensors go ape sh*t and the knock count goes through the roof. This is a FACT!! HOW do you guys not know this! This is something a dyno also measures is knock count. Did you know for ever degree of knock your computer pulls 3 degree's of timing? Do you know ever degree of timing is 3hp lost?? So your actually loosing power with these kits that's why the claims of fuel economy is laughable.
Do you also not know detonation cause damage to your engine?? and shortens it's life. If you did not know knock is detonation. Also why the dyno testing is important to measure the knock count and ignition timing, this is stuff that a 18yr old civic owner knows for crying out loud.
More facts that totally destroy all the techno babble of these systems, These are not theory.
Small Quenching Distance
Hydrogen has a small quenching distance, smaller than gasoline. Consequently, hydrogen flames travel closer to the cylinder wall than other fuels before they extinguish. Thus, it is more difficult to quench a hydrogen flame than a gasoline flame. The smaller quenching distance can also increase the tendency for backfire since the flame from a hydrogen-air mixture more readily passes a nearly closed intake valve, than a hydrocarbon-air flame.
High Autoignition Temperature
Hydrogen has a relatively high autoignition temperature. This has important implications when a hydrogen-air mixture is compressed. In fact, the autoignition temperature is an important factor in determining what compression ratio an engine can use, since the temperature rise during compression is related to the compression ratio. Hmm what does this mean, simple the normal gas engine does not have the compression ratio to properly and safely burn hydrogen gas without pre-ignition/detonation. How is this a secret?
Low Density
Hydrogen has very low density, why is this a problem? power output, is reduced. Will happen every time you slap one of these on the rollers.
Next a FACT! also easily proven on a dyno test. Feel free to ask any chemical engineer about these numbers they are nuts on accurate.
Air/Fuel Ratio
The theoretical or stoichiometric combustion of hydrogen and oxygen is given as:
2H2 + O2
= 2H2O
Moles of H2 for complete combustion
= 2 moles
Moles of O2 for complete combustion
= 1 mole
Because air is used as the oxidizer instead oxygen, the nitro-gen in the air needs to be included in the calculation:
Moles of N2 in air
= Moles of O2 x (79% N2 in air / 21% O2 in air)
= 1 mole of O2 x (79% N2 in air / 21% O2 in air)
= 3.762 moles N2
Number of moles of air
= Moles of O2 + moles of N2
= 1 + 3.762
= 4.762 moles of air
Weight of O2
= 1 mole of O2 x 32 g/mole
= 32 g
Weight of N2
= 3.762 moles of N2 x 28 g/mole
= 105.33 g
Weight of air
= weight of O2 + weight of N (1)
= 32g + 105.33 g
= 137.33 g
Weight of H2
= 2 moles of H2 x 2 g/mole
= 4 g
Stoichiometric air/fuel (A/F) ratio for hydrogen and air is:
A/F based on mass:
= mass of air/mass of fuel
= 137.33 g / 4 g
= 34.33:1
A/F based on volume:
= volume (moles) of air/volume (moles) of fuel
= 4.762 / 2
= 2.4:1
The percent of the combustion chamber occupied by hydro-gen for a stoichiometric mixture:
% H2
= volume (moles) of H2/total volume (2)
= volume H2/(volume air + volume of H2)
= 2 / (4.762 + 2)
= 29.6%
Now what do all these numbers mean as a most will confused by all of this.
As these calculations show, the stoichiometric or chemically correct A/F ratio for the complete combustion of hydrogen in air is about 34:1 by mass. This means that for complete combustion, 34 pounds of air are required for every pound of hydrogen. This is much higher than the 14.7:1 A/F ratio required for gasoline.
Since hydrogen is a gaseous fuel at ambient conditions it displaces more of the combustion chamber than a liquid fuel. Consequently less of the combustion chamber can be occupied by air. At stoichiometric conditions, hydrogen dis-places about 30% of the combustion chamber, compared to about 1 to 2% for gasoline.
So what does that mean? It means it does not work like you guys claim or all the other water4gas and every other person or company selling or promoting these systems.
As with gasoline engines, unburnt fuel can seep by the piston rings and enter the crankcase. Since hydrogen has a lower energy ignition limit than gasoline, any unburnt hydrogen entering the crankcase has a greater chance of igniting. Hydrogen should be prevented from accumulating through ventilation. What does this mean, You need crackcase ventilation that's if you were using a system that actually worked, ALL and let me repeat this ALL this bubbler systems are pure junk. You can put all the time and money into you like your injecting it wrong and unsafely and you do not have the power in a cars battery or altenator to make any real significant volume and thank god for that because you would just damage your motor anyways.
Now having said all that can you actually use hydrogen in a internal combustion engine to get better fuel economy, yes can you get it from this low flow cheesy bubbles, the answer is hell no. You can add all the plates you want it's not going to produce enough with your meager 13.45v from your cars battery Period.
Second the disadvantage of central injection is that it is more susceptible to irregular combustion due to pre-ignition and backfire. The greater amount of hydrogen/air mixture within the intake manifold compounds the effects of pre-ignition. Why would you add something to your car that is adding detonation?
Detonation also increases Exhaust gas temps, and engine operating temps, This it's why I laugh when these scam sites try to say it reduces emission when it actually increases NOX output.
The combustion of hydrogen with air also produce oxides of nitrogen (NOx):
H2 + O2 + N2 = H2O + N2 + NOx DUHHH! How is this a secret??
Do a emissions test surely you cannot say you can't afford to do that? If multiple facts are a lie how much truth is in the rest??
None of these systems are hydrogen fuel cells nor is your none modified internal combustion engine designed to burn the addition of hydrogen efficiently or even safely.
Why is it that these simple fact never appear on 42 page thread. Please feel free to disprove any fact that I have stated. Better yet find one single solitary piece of evidence not testimony or some company selling these fact dyno or emission test because not one site has a real one. Then you can prove me wrong.
The sad truth 90% of the proponents of these kits don't know jack about how the combustion process actually works or about the details of the modern internal combustion engine.
So if you like detonation, higher emissions, higher exhaust gas temperatures, higher engine oil temps, the risk of hydrogen gas in your crankcase igniting, cooked 02 sensors, shorter sparkplug life, increase carbon build up on valves, piston tops, then use away in ignorant bliss my friends. You will not find one ASE Certified master mechanic who will dispute these facts.
I was however thinking about the title of this thread. So I guess this is really the thread to argue about this. So maybe the HHO guys that are actively perusing this should start another thread to share ideas and not argue the points. What I dont understand is some of the smartest people in this thread spend so much time replying with write ups of why it wont work instead of helping to find a solution. Since I have nothing useful to add or say I think I will pack it up.
