Before I pull the head - Need Advice!

[Daisywheels]

Hi all - Brief history: Rocker/follower came off. No visible damage to any parts so I put in back on with a new lash adjuster. No water in oil prior to this, as I just changed it.

Started truck per Haynes, got it warm, ran at 3000 RPMs for 1 minute then shut it down. I heard what had sounded like the follower did not hold, so I decided to check the oil to see if there was any major damage. Sure enough - water/coolant in oil.

Pulled the valve cover only to find out that the original rocker did hold, and it threw the exhaust rocker right next to where I replaced the intake follower. What luck huh?

Any ways, I was hoping for some suggestions for other things to check before I pull the head. This is just too bizarre to me! I am aware the water does not pass through the intake manifolds, so that's all I will rule out right now.

TIA! -DW

 

[Daisywheels]

I just shined a flashlight down the head ports - both intake and exhaust on cylinder 3 and found some fluid about 1/2 in deep in both ports. I can't tell if it is coolant, oil, or both. Might this offer any clues as to what is going on?

-DW

 

[2000StreetRod]

exhaust manifold off?

Do you have the exhaust manifold off? If not, I don't understand how you are looking into the cylinder 3 exhaust port.

 

[Daisywheels]

Do you have the exhaust manifold off? If not, I don't understand how you are looking into the cylinder 3 exhaust port.

I was confused. No, the exhaust manifold is not off yet. I thought one of those valves for cylinder 3 was exhaust and one was intake. Either way, both head ports in cylinder 3 are filled with fluid. I bet if I pulled the plug, the fluid would leak out?

-DW

 

[2000StreetRod]

head intake ports

. . . No, the exhaust manifold is not off yet. I thought one of those valves for cylinder 3 was exhaust and one was intake. Either way, both head ports in cylinder 3 are filled with fluid. I bet if I pulled the plug, the fluid would leak out?

I'm still confused. There is only one head intake port per cylinder.

 

[Daisywheels]

I'm still confused. There is only one head intake port per cylinder.
View attachment 84387
View attachment 84388

My apologies 2000StreetRod. I had rockers and valve springs on my mind and didn't explain this very well at all. The image below should clarify. If not please let me know. Also, do you know of a good link to a guide on how best to take off this head? The right head? Does Haynes do a good enough job? Thanks again
- DW

 

[2000StreetRod]

removing cylinder head

OK, so there is coolant in the intake ports for cylinders 2 and 3. Is there any chance that the fluid fell into the open ports instead of leaking from a cracked head? If so, I suggest suctioning out the coolant and pressurizing the coolant system to confirm the leak source(s). A new set of head bolts, intake & exhaust gaskets are not inexpensive. And then there is the time to remove and install the head and time the camshaft.

I looked thru my Haynes manual and the procedure for removing the head is adequate. I strongly suggest that you position the crankshaft with piston 1 at TDC on compression before removing the head. If you don't remove all of the cam followers before installing the head then you must make sure that the camshaft is in the correct position or there is the possibility of valve damage when tightening the head bolts.

 

[Daisywheels]

OK, so there is coolant in the intake ports for cylinders 2 and 3. Is there any chance that the fluid fell into the open ports instead of leaking from a cracked head? If so, I suggest suctioning out the coolant and pressurizing the coolant system to confirm the leak source(s). A new set of head bolts, intake & exhaust gaskets are not inexpensive. And then there is the time to remove and install the head and time the camshaft.

I looked thru my Haynes manual and the procedure for removing the head is adequate. I strongly suggest that you position the crankshaft with piston 1 at TDC on compression before removing the head. If you don't remove all of the cam followers before installing the head then you must make sure that the camshaft is in the correct position or there is the possibility of valve damage when tightening the head bolts.

I do have a coolant leak somewhere. My guess is at the T-stat housing where the hose connects. It was cracked there and coolant was always present on top of the head under the fuel injector harness. Coolant MAY have entered the ports when I was testing the rocker/follower I replaced (the one closest to the firewall). I don't know how that would happen tho.

I didn't see ANY fluid in any ports until I put it all back together only to throw the follower right next to the first one that threw. I just don't understand how throwing the second follower lead to fluid in the intake ports for cylinders 2 and 3. There was never any fluid present in the ports even while I ran/drove the truck without even knowing about the first rocker just laying on the head.

Is it possible that fluid could be oil rather than coolant? When I just checked, it looks more like oil and not coolant. There is no green color to it, and it's not light enough to look like its mixing coolant and oil like what I see on the dipstick.

I'll take your advice on suctioning out the fluid (turkey baster is all I can think of) and confirm what the fluid consists of. Then I'll pressurize the coolant system to confirm the leak source(s). I'll see if my neighbor has a pressurizing tool. Can you tell I don't want to pull the head Thanks again StreetRod. -DW

 

[Daisywheels]

I couldn't locate a cooling system pressure tester, so I did another compression check instead after cleaning out the liquid in the head intake ports. I had the intake manifolds off and the valve cover off. I built up compression just bursting the starter. All rocker/followers remained in place. Results:

Cylinder 1 150
Cylinder 2 160
Cylinder 3 0

What would be the causes of 0 compression? Someone said there should be SOME compression even with a cracked head, especially way up on the intake.

If I have to pull the head, I'm going to call it, and just sell it as is. I don't want to have to buy special tools for a job I will only do once. And this truck is not something an amateur should be working on even just for the sake of learning. Rear timing chain? Come on!

-DW

 

[Daisywheels]

Actually I have just self diagnosed it The only way I know a cylinder can have 0 compression (and water in oil) is a hole in the piston. So before calling it quits, I am going to rent or buy a cheap borescope to confirm my diagnosis. Anybody want to bet I'm wrong? Will find out soon! -DW

 

[2000StreetRod]

Inspection camera

A high resolution digital inspection camera with USB interface has been on my wish list for several years. It allows viewing bent valves and damaged pistons thru a spark plug hole. I think every commercial repair shop should have one.

I doubt that there is a hole in your piston. Did you suction out the fluid in the head port and determine if it is coolant?

 

[Daisywheels]

A high resolution digital inspection camera with USB interface has been on my wish list for several years. It allows viewing bent valves and damaged pistons thru a spark plug hole. I think every commercial repair shop should have one.

I doubt that there is a hole in your piston. Did you suction out the fluid in the head port and determine if it is coolant?

You can get a decent USB camera on E-bay for about 20 bucks. They have definitely come down in price.

The fluid was a mixture of coolant and oil - just like what I found on the dip stick. I'm currently searching "reasons for ZERO compression."

The reason I'm guessing there is a hole in the piston is because when I threw the first rocker, the tip of the valve stem wasn't as high as the tip of the valve stem in the second rocker I threw. Remember I could put the rocker on very loose with just my fingers. I think that valve in cylinder 3 dropped a bit, and the piston slammed into it. Right now, both valve stems in question are at the proper height and holding the rockers. The second rocker was quite a chore to get back on - as it should be.

ETA: By tip of the valve stem, I meant the distance from the retainer to the tip of the stem.

-DW

 

[2000StreetRod]

Damaged valve?

The camera I have in mind will be able to display or save images to my laptop in addition to the built in display. Harbor Freight sells a candidate.

My bet is a damaged valve that doesn't seal/seat. If it doesn't always seat there would be less pressure on the cam follower allowing it to pop out. The casting for the valve guide could be cracked allowing coolant to leak into the intake port. Has the engine ever overheated?

 

[Daisywheels]

The cheap Chinese ones on ebay allow you to use a simple program like Windows Live Movie Maker to record video and take snap shots all saved to your computer. No separate screen - Just like my OBD-II scanner needs my laptop to display info. I watched a guy using a cheap one on a motor cycle, and the resolution and features were actually quite good. At least it was small enough to get into a spark plug hole on a motor cycle.

No, this truck has never over heated. In fact, I had to change the thermostat because it was running too cold. I'd like to check that piston and even the valve with a scope before I even think about pulling the head. If what you say is correct, the head must come off, no? Thanks,

-DW

 

[boominXplorer]

The reason I'm guessing there is a hole in the piston is because when I threw the first rocker, the tip of the valve stem wasn't as high as the tip of the valve stem in the second rocker I threw. Remember I could put the rocker on very loose with just my fingers. I think that valve in cylinder 3 dropped a bit, and the piston slammed into it. Right now, both valve stems in question are at the proper height and holding the rockers. The second rocker was quite a chore to get back on - as it should be.

ETA: By tip of the valve stem, I meant the distance from the retainer to the tip of the stem.

-DW

Try spinning the valve spring. If it spins it is bent, broken or damaged. The oe pistons are Forged, HIGHLY unlikely to have a hole in a stock truck. The only way you would have 0 compression if a valve is staying open or it has cracked.

 

[Daisywheels]

Try spinning the valve spring. If it spins it is bent, broken or damaged. The oe pistons are Forged, HIGHLY unlikely to have a hole in a stock truck. The only way you would have 0 compression if a valve is staying open or it has cracked.

Hey Boomin, no the valve spring won't budge - even when the rocker was off.
Question: If the cam lobe is pointing down, then that valve should be open right? And if the base of the lobe is touching the rocker/follower, (lobe pointing up) then the valve should be closed. Is that correct? Because that is any easy way for me to check that. Thanks, -DW

 

[boominXplorer]

Hey Boomin, no the valve spring won't budge - even when the rocker was off.
Question: If the cam lobe is pointing down, then that valve should be open right? And if the base of the lobe is touching the rocker/follower, (lobe pointing up) then the valve should be closed. Is that correct? Because that is any easy way for me to check that. Thanks, -DW

Yes you are correct. You want to check the spring when there is no pressure on it.

Also another thing you can do is take the shrader valve out of your compression tester and hook straight shop air (120 psi) and see where and what shoots out. The air will leak by the rings and hiss slightly but that is normal. You need to look for air shooting out the intake or exhaust (or oil shooting out the dipstick tube if theres a hole in piston lol)

 

[Daisywheels]

The camera I have in mind will be able to display or save images to my laptop in addition to the built in display. Harbor Freight sells a candidate.
View attachment 84406

My bet is a damaged valve that doesn't seal/seat. If it doesn't always seat there would be less pressure on the cam follower allowing it to pop out. The casting for the valve guide could be cracked allowing coolant to leak into the intake port. Has the engine ever overheated?

Hey there StreetRod - Need you to talk me out of pulling the head!

Please tell me you see something wrong with the rear timing chain. And how would I know if it was serviced by the previous owner? Right and/or left?

The head is also shown. Thanks! -DW

 

[2000StreetRod]

right cassette

There are two common points of failure for the right cassette guide assembly. The top where kept in position by the upper guide post.

And near the pivot point.

Mine was broken in multiple places.

Your upper guide post section looks good. But it could be broken down below. Try pulling upward on the guide. If it moves more than about 1/8 inch it may be broken below.

The improved right guide assembly has metal reinforcement on the slack side but none on the traction side.

The old guide assembly has no metal reinforcement on either side.

I can't tell much from the head photo due to lack of detail.

 

[Daisywheels]

I can't see well enough even using a mirror if there is a metal reinforcement. Guess there is only one way to find out I'm not sure what you mean by traction side vs slack side, but I pushed a screwdriver everywhere on the chain that gave me enough room to, and all is tight. Actually, no movement at all. Coincidentally, I did manage to see the one of the smaller 2 head bolts. I'm sure I'll find the other one if I look hard enough. I also saw your thread about the timing chains (I think) and boy did you rip Ford a new one for designing such a terrible motor. I wholeheartedly agreed with what you said. And they made it for so long!

-DW