410 and/or 422 Cam idle behavior

[WilliamWallaceGS]

I just ordered a motorcraft coil from rockauto. They're usually good getting stuff to my house in a few days, so it'll probably be early next week before I get it. I'll definitely let you guys know what happens when I get the coil. I'm glad this repair is right out in the open, I don't have to replace any gaskets to get to it.

I almost don't want to get my hopes up, but how can you argue with evidence like that?!?!?!

 

[malohnes]

Probably the only time I have seen a bad coil operate like that. Something to keep in mind when looking into troublesome drivability issues.

 

[jd4242]

My stock oe one did that when I first got the truck.when it got warm two cylinders would get real weak spark.the higher the rpm it didnt seem noticeable unless I was holding a gear and running high rpm

 

[WilliamWallaceGS]

Well, I got the new coil installed. The new coil did not cure my problem. It does seem to have helped, I can tell a noticeable difference pulling the wires now, but my idle is still sucky at times. Right now it will idle around 8-900 rpm still, occasionally dropping below 800 rpm, but it’s just very rough. Rough meaning my steering wheel vibrates like a champ, and so does the rest of my truck. My wife said it feels like a massage chair to give you an idea of the severity. Odd thing is sometimes it’s rough, and then other times I can feel it smooth out at around the same RPM range.

It feels like a real bad miss. I checked the plugs/wires out again this weekend and all seemed well (they were replaced last fall). I checked for vacuum leaks again and got nothing, I even replaced my old plastic vacuum lines with new rubber lines, then taped the boots just in case they were shot (didn’t see any cracks or anything by inspection, but taped them anyway for good measure). Vacuum at idle in gear is hovering around 15-16 in. HG. Vacuum at idle in park is around 17-18 in. HG.

Interestingly enough a guy at work today when I pulled up to security asked if I had a cam in the truck, said it sounded real good (I do love the sound with JBA headers, Super 44 Flows and dual 3.5” tips when it’s not acting up). To me, it almost sounds like it’s gonna stall out, which from my understanding is NOT normal for a mild cam like the 410.

The only remaining sensors/components that I haven’t replaced in the rebuild are the PCM, ICM, IAT sensor and crank position sensor. My MAF sensor is original, but I cleaned that and disconnecting it doesn’t help anything. O2s are also relatively new with about 30k miles on them. Since it comes and goes, it sounds like an electrical issue, but I’m still not sure. Codes don’t give me anything either. I found a new motorcraft ICM on amazon for half of what everyone else charges (those things are expensive), so I went ahead and got that just to see if the ICM is indeed at fault. I suppose I could have pulled mine off and had it tested, but I know sometimes those things test out fine, but once they get a little warm start acting up, so I went ahead and bought this one since I got a good price on it. If it’s not that, then I don’t know what the deal is.

 

[jd4242]

I would try crank sensor.

 

[Benjam]

Before you throw more parts at it, just double check the firing order on the coil pack.. These fords switch I believe its 5 and 6 on the pack itself and thats commonly mixed up.

Next, as it looks like you've been doing, figure out which cylinders aren't contributing in the engine. Pull/ground wires, see which ones change the engine tone and which ones don't.

Also, have you run a compression test at all?

Benjam

 

[malohnes]

How is the condition of the coil plug from the ICM? I also agree that looking into your grounds may bear some fruit, but I am not convinced that is the source of the problems you are having. Also, have you reset the ECM by disconnecting your battery for a long spell, while cleaning your MAF or other sensors. I still think it is along those lines your issue comes from. I keep going back to MAF. Shouldn't be an o2 sensor until it heats up and goes to closed loop.

Looking at your post form 1-31, your fuel pressure seems low to me, IIRC.

 

[WilliamWallaceGS]

JD: I thought about the CPS, but from what I've read they usually work or they don't. Not to say they don't have weird faults every now and again, I'll keep that one in my back pocket. Maybe get one, install it, and if it doesn't solve my problem just take it back.

Benjam: I've checked my wire routing seemingly a million times, they're wired correctly. The new motorcraft coil I installed also has the cylinder labels on each of the outputs, so that helps as well. I didn't pull every plug wire when I replaced the coil, just a couple that were causing me trouble before. I checked by tone and watching my vacuum gauge, and they reacted accordingly, but it still idles rough. Compression test yielded 210-215 psi on all 6 cylinders, so that's all good.

Malohnes: I jiggled my ICM plug the other day just to check that and see if something was loose, but I can't remember ever disconnecting it from the ICM itself to tell you the truth. I've reset the computer and done the idle reset several times hoping to eliminate the problem, but it didn't work. Usually after a reset it's pretty daggon smooth, then starts going nuts shortly after. Could be a dud MAF sensor, but it also does it with my Granatelli MAF sensor too (I bought one years ago when I was still in high school thinking I would really get 15-20 HP from it...). But when I unplug the MAF sensor, it bogs like I would expect. My fuel pressure does seem low, but it's in the low side of spec. Everything there is new too, not sure why I don't have better pressure. Probably the Advance Auto Pump I threw in there isn't up to par.

It's weird, running above idle everything is great, plenty of power, smooth, it's all butter. It's only the idle that's jacked.

 

[jd4242]

Does it do it in park and in gear at idle?you using a stock air box? Crank case vent hooked up? Any brake problems? Plugs gapped right? Any tranny fluid in the vac lines? Tps is new right? You dont have a cam sensor on that motor right? What was you fuel psi at idle and then unhook the pressure regulator and see what it is.

 

[WilliamWallaceGS]

Does it do it in park and in gear at idle? Yes, but more noticeable in gear

you using a stock air box? No, KKM intake. I removed the vacuum line that goes to the stock airbox completely.

Crank case vent hooked up? Yes

Any brake problems? No

Plugs gapped right? Yep, .054" all 6 (spec is .052"-.056" IIRC)

Any tranny fluid in the vac lines? No

Tps is new right? Yes, and voltage is around 0.98V closed, tried a spare I had and same thing.

You dont have a cam sensor on that motor right? No, just a crank sensor

What was you fuel psi at idle and then unhook the pressure regulator and see what it is. 36 PSI KOEO, 30 PSI idle, 38 PSI with vacuum unhooked from FPR

 

[jd4242]

Does it do it in park and in gear at idle? Yes, but more noticeable in gear

you using a stock air box? No, KKM intake. I removed the vacuum line that goes to the stock airbox completely.

Crank case vent hooked up? Yes

Any brake problems? No

Plugs gapped right? Yep, .054" all 6 (spec is .052"-.056" IIRC)

Any tranny fluid in the vac lines? No

Tps is new right? Yes, and voltage is around 0.98V closed, tried a spare I had and same thing.

You dont have a cam sensor on that motor right? No, just a crank sensor

What was you fuel psi at idle and then unhook the pressure regulator and see what it is. 36 PSI KOEO, 30 PSI idle, 38 PSI with vacuum unhooked from FPR

Really probably has nothing to do with it but what did you do to the line from the intake to oil fill neck?every thing else sounds good.

 

[WilliamWallaceGS]

JD the fresh air line from intake tube to valve cover is still connected. I inspected that too, and taped up a few areas that looked questionable, but other than that it's all good. I sprayed that down with Carb cleaner too, got nothing.

 

[jd4242]

JD the fresh air line from intake tube to valve cover is still connected. I inspected that too, and taped up a few areas that looked questionable, but other than that it's all good. I sprayed that down with Carb cleaner too, got nothing.

Its not a fresh air tube.it should be hooked up to a vac source.the engine should be a sealed negtive pressure system. Vac is being pulled from the other side from the manifold and should also have vac at oil neck.if not you are pulling fresh air from one side (vac leak) it should have vac pulled at both creating a negative pressure system so when blow by is created is sucked right up.not sucking fresh air all the time.

Shouldnt be causing your problems but just pointing it outeither both hooked to vac or both with a filter (not efficient)

 

[WilliamWallaceGS]

Not to turn this into a debate about PCV systems, but is that correct? My understanding of the PCV system is that fresh air entered one side, went through the crankcase to help flush out and and mix with blow by gases, then got sucked up through the pcv valve via the intake manifold.

 

[jd4242]

Not to turn this into a debate about PCV systems, but is that correct? My understanding of the PCV system is that fresh air entered one side, went through the crankcase to help flush out and and mix with blow by gases, then got sucked up through the pcv valve via the intake manifold.

Nope should be a negative pressure system.the crankcase needs to be sealed.only when blow by is created is anything sucked up.that hose you pulled off the intake tube still was receiving vac.you cant have an open source of fresh air being sucked into the motor then into the intake with out it being metered.Google it, im 100% sure.

Now on old cars they used a filter on both sides and relied on the blow by gas to escape by them selfs.not efficient and epa didnt like un filtered gas escaping.you also make more power with a sealed negative pressure motor.

 

[jd4242]

Like I said though, may not really be related to your problem but could effect your idle because you do have a vac leak if that other hose is pulling fresh air

 

[WilliamWallaceGS]

It is metered, the hose going from the intake tube to the valve cover is downstream of the MAF sensor.

Not that Wikipedia is the end all be all on technical stuff, but if you look up Positive Crankcase Ventilation, you can read this:

"The system relies on the fact that, while the engine is running under light load and moderate throttle opening, the intake manifold's air pressure is always less than crankcase air pressure (see manifold vacuum). The lower pressure of the intake manifold draws air towards it, pulling air from the breather through the crankcase (where it dilutes and mixes with combustion gases), through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold.

The PCV system usually consists of the breather tube and the PCV valve. The breather tube connects the crankcase to a clean source of fresh air—the air cleaner body...

Once inside the engine, the air circulates around the interior of the engine, picking up and clearing away combustion byproduct gases, including a large amount of water vapor which includes dissolved chemical combustion byproducts, then exits through another simple baffle, screen, or mesh to trap oil droplets before being drawn out through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold."

 

[jd4242]

It is metered, the hose going from the intake tube to the valve cover is downstream of the MAF sensor.

Not that Wikipedia is the end all be all on technical stuff, but if you look up Positive Crankcase Ventilation, you can read this:

"The system relies on the fact that, while the engine is running under light load and moderate throttle opening, the intake manifold's air pressure is always less than crankcase air pressure (see manifold vacuum). The lower pressure of the intake manifold draws air towards it, pulling air from the breather through the crankcase (where it dilutes and mixes with combustion gases), through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold.

The PCV system usually consists of the breather tube and the PCV valve. The breather tube connects the crankcase to a clean source of fresh air—the air cleaner body...

Once inside the engine, the air circulates around the interior of the engine, picking up and clearing away combustion byproduct gases, including a large amount of water vapor which includes dissolved chemical combustion byproducts, then exits through another simple baffle, screen, or mesh to trap oil droplets before being drawn out through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold."

Thats not accurate. Go drill a hole into you intake tube right before you maf and tell me if there is vac..if there is not I will buy you any intake on the market to replace it.the crankcase should be a sealed box.the pcv (positive crank ventilation) is just what it states, it removes POSITIVE air or gasses from a sealed system. As long as that hose is in the air intake system and not after/outside of the engines air filter box, its getting vac.

If you dont want to hook it up ATLEAST cap it totally off or remove the other side and put two air filters on the valve covers.

 

[WilliamWallaceGS]

"If you dont want to hook it up ATLEAST cap it totally off or remove the other side and put two air filters on the valve covers." Sorry JD, not sure what you mean here. I have my PCV system installed as designed with the breather tube (what I called "fresh air tube") hooked up downstream of the MAF connecting the valve cover and the intake tube.

Not to keep the PCV debate going (this will be my last mention of it, so as not to go off way too far from the initial thread), but that tube downstream of the MAF to the valve cover is indeed a fresh air inlet to help collect blow by gases in the crankcase, which are then routed to the intake manifold. Yes there is vacuum in the intake tube, but manifold vacuum is much larger than intake tube vacuum (in most cases, depending on the position of the throttle plate) and at idle is enough to take a little bit of air from the intake tube through the crankcase. This is how the PCV system is described in the Haynes manual, and here are a few other sources saying the same thing:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/234/pcv-system

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/positive-crankcase-ventilation-system.htm

http://www.aa1car.com/library/pcv.htm

Now I did come across some literature that described a similar PCV system to what you described, but I think all of the later model vehicles PCV systems work as described in the Haynes manual.

OK, I'm done with PCV. Not trying to be condescending or a jerk, but I'm gonna get back to the idle issue.

I got my ICM in the mail yesterday (wasn't expecting that). And I also swung by NAPA and got a Crank Position sensor just for kicks and grins. I installed the ICM first, fired it up (did not reset the computer) and waited. About two minutes in, still running rough. So I replaced the CPS, fired it up and waited. Waited and waited some more. All of a sudden, she was smooth. I would put it in gear, and she would hover around 850-900 RPM. So I took it for a drive. Everytime I came to a stop it was like a dream. PERFECT, so I got back home and parked it, then I disconnected the battery to clear the memory. Fired it up and it was back to being rough.

So I let it sit for a few minutes, all of a sudden it was like a switch was thrown and it was smooth again. Put it in gear, and all was well. Great, the computer just had to figure itself out...or so I thought.

So when I went to work this AM, fired it up, and it was rough again. Even after driving a bit, she never settled out to how she was last night (last night was BUTTER before I came back inside). I thought it may have to relearn cold settings or something, but once it warmed up it wasn't how it should be.

One thing I will note though, is that last night during the "rough" spells, I did disconnect my MAFS, and she idled like a dream, and when I reconnected it it went back to acting up. So I wonder if somehow last night in playing around with that, the MAFS acted fine just enough for me to cut the truck off and go inside, and now it's acting up again? I could have swore that when I disconnected the MAFS previously, it bogged, but not last night.

So on my drive home today I'll see what happens. Once I get close to the house, I'm gonna stop and disconnect the MAFS, then drive easy the rest of the way home and see how she is.

 

[jd4242]

And this will be my last post about it...what you just said is what ive been saying.I asked what you did with that hose..and its not """fresh air'"", its pulling very little FILTERED METERED air in and only at idle, 99% of the time both are creating vac and pulling blow by only, the difference in manifold pressure and intake tube pressure at idle normally is equaled out by blow by pressure.my whole point is that tube needs to be hooked up to the intake and crank needs to be sealed, not just laying under the hood drawing FRESH, UNMETERED, UNFILTERED AIR.which you made it sound like thats what was going on.done

Maf is the last thing you haven't replaced right? Could be your EDIS or just a bad ecm.but with those you would think it would run ruff through all the rpm range.