'90 F250 new starter doesn't disengage - help?

[RangerX]

Long story to give all possible clues.
Last week, I drove my 90 F250 (4.9 I-6, 5-speed) in stop and go traffic with temp in the 90s for 50 minutes or so. The temp gauge was a little elevated, but not hot. I parked, shut it off, and went in the store for five minutes.
When I came back out, I saw that my coolant was running down the street. I went to start it up, and only got a couple weak cranks, and I lost all power, even to the dash gauges. Tried to jumpstart, and realized the starter was stuck engaged. I had it towed home.
So this weekend, I bought a new battery, fender solenoid, and starter.
The old starter was a older style direct drive, and I replaced it with a new style gear reduction type, like on my Ranger and Ex.
I bought it from an auto electric shop that's been around forever and I trust. They recommended the switch, and gave directions on how to rewire it between the solenoid and starter.
I got it all together and hooked up, and when I start the truck, the starter stays running. When I turn off the key, starter stops.

What should I check? What could be hooked up wrong? I'm NOT electricity-minded, BTW.

I've had a history of this happening occasionally with this truck, but where the starter would keep turning the engine even after the ignition is turned off.

Any help appreciated!

 

[RangerX]

bump

 

[Tbars4]

I bought it from an auto electric shop that's been around forever and I trust. They recommended the switch, and gave directions on how to rewire it between the solenoid and starter.
Ive had a history of this happening occasionally with this truck, but where the starter would keep turning the engine even after the ignition is turned off.

Any help appreciated!

...My very first thought would be to check with the guys you bought it from as in, if the starter is wired properly and if this could be a new starter problem...

...The old starters would get a week bendix after they got hot and this would let the starter hang...

...Let me know if you need more info....:biggthump

...This page has some testing info worth reading on how it wires up...
http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=67234&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

...I am going to add some quick pics as I got this info for another 91 4.9 here...
http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=67234&highlight=


Ford started using these starters on the gasoline trucks in 1992 but used the on the diesel truck for sometime before 1992.

Your starter in 1991 was a 1 to 1 starter like the one Ford used for many years with the solenoid on the fender.

Your 1 to 1 starter used before 1992:

Exploded View:

Wiring:

The gear reduction starter used on gas trucks 1992 on images:

Exploded View:

Wiring:

 

[RangerX]

Thanks Ted, that helps some. After talking with the shop again, I'm thinking it may be the ignition switch? He told me to see if I can start it by jumping the two points on the fender solenoid, the main power terminal and the smaller starter post.
I have to investigate further...

 

[Tbars4]

...How is this going???

...If all else fails, I might be in your neighborhood Sunday...Let me know...

 

[RangerX]

Well, after reading your linked thread, and some others, I tried pulling the small starter wire off the fender solenoid while the engine and starter were running. It does not stop the starter, so I think that tells me it's not that solenoid, and probably is the ignition switch or ignition control module?

If you're down this way, yeah I could use your help!

 

[Tbars4]

...I'll pm you later tonight...

 

[Tbars4]

...I did some lite reading tonight and it keeps coming up to the solenoid or the flex plate.....Let me know what you find out and thanks for the killer burrito..:biggthump

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251880&highlight=starter

....And here is one about the shims...
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96844&highlight=starter

 

[90ranajo]

You get this figured out yet Bill? I'm always available most evenings and weekends (unless I'm up working on the Ranger) if you need a hand.

 

[Tbars4]

...Heres what we got...

...The wiring all checks out...We even took the new updated starter down to Kragen and had it tested...The starter tested fine on their machine but no results would show up for the Solenoid...They said when this happens their customers usually return for a new one and that is the fix...

...They were also a little concerned as when the starter gear was to retract, it would slow down first, and then retract...Consensus says it should retract first and then slow down...:scratch:

...The flex plate is chewed up and in an odd way...When we pulled the new starter off we found shavings in it...The starter gear looks new still but the flex plate, a section of it was wore a good 1/8 + of an inch and right next to it, only the face started showing wear on the teeth...

...Today's result is the starter is still running when the key is returned to the run position...Again, electrical test on wiring shows all is well but it may be the solenoid or it's hanging on the flex plate...He will be taking it back to his starter guy to have him look at it...

...Any and all suggestions would be great as this I think is his third starter in a few years...

 

[90ranajo]

It shouldn't matter if the motor is de-energizing before or after the pinion gear retracts. It needs to extend/retract without too much resistance on the ring gear. If the ring gear is showing signs of gear tooth wear, then the gear mesh between the starter pinion gear and the flexplate ring gear may be too tight and needs to be opened up some.

 

[RangerX]

I worked long days so far this week, so I have not had a chance to bring the starter back to the shop for a test.
Bob, it's still dead in the water, and yeah I could use help! Just don't know when or what kind yet.
Hopefully tomorrow, I'll know if it's the new starter or not.

And Ted, thanks for all the help!

 

[Tbars4]

...No problem...:biggthump

...At least we know the wiring is good and as soon as I drove off, I figured what the 3.2V was...I'm pretty sure it's the jumper at the clutch...

...If all works out I hope to be seeing Show down there at Matts on Sunday...

 

[RangerX]

I took the starter in to the shop for a checkup today. He says it's fine.
I talked with him for a while, telling him about the fried wire Ted found running from the clutch defeat switch up to the ignition switch. He feels there is another short somewhere in the hot fused wire bundle.
He also suggested we put a multimeter on the spade terminal on the starter solenoid to see if there's 12V all the time. Did we do that, Ted? I don't remember, but I don't think so.
I also mentioned the chewed up flywheel, and he looked at the teeth on the starter, and noticed some wear marks on the face of the arm holding the starter sprocket. He says it looks like the sprocket is going almost past the flywheel, to make that kind of contact. He said maybe a bad engine crank? I'm thinking shim the starter out... What could I use?

 

[Tbars4]

...I did check it at the fender and the spade was not getting 12V meaning, your new fender solenoid was in good proper working condition...

 

[Stic-o]

Did you guys try switching the ignition switch yet...That's where I would think the problem is. Besides they are not that exspensive, and that thing as a deadicated key for the Ignition....Ahh the good old days round key, square key. ...sigh...

 

[RangerX]

Yup, new switch, but the one that bolts on top of the steering column behind the dash (see pic), not the key cylinder.
It was what the burned up wire from the clutch switch ran to.
Any test to see if the key cylinder is the problem?

 

[Stic-o]

Yup, new switch, but the one that bolts on top of the steering column behind the dash (see pic), not the key cylinder.
It was what the burned up wire from the clutch switch ran to.
Any test to see if the key cylinder is the problem?

The key cylinder is what I was talking about. I have replaced those in my old '85 Ranger and a my dad's '93 t-bird.

 

[90ranajo]

I've got a new cylinder from my 90 Ranger you can try. Not sure if it will work, but it may be worth a shot.

 

[Tbars4]

...Any updates on this???

...Btw, ask 90ranajo about his factory bypass...:biggthump