97 5.0 - how to/ how long to remove timing cover- water pump, broken bolt | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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97 5.0 - how to/ how long to remove timing cover- water pump, broken bolt

MTurk

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Year, Model & Trim Level
1997 Ford Explorer
hi Guys,
A lot of good information about bolts rusting and snapping when replacing the water pump. My 97 5.0L has two broken bolts in it right now because they rusted out. Mechanic is suggesting we remove the engine and oil pan etc for 10+ hours. I found on here that he should be able to remove the harmonic balancer and loosen the oil pan and get the cover off that way.

Three questions
1. I am trying to spoon feed him how to do it (not that he needs it, just want to be thorough) - is there anything else I need to tell him besides remove the harmonic balancer and loosen the oil pan and you should be able to get the cover off?

2. Any idea how long this should take? He mentioned 10hrs to remove engine+oil pan and maybe 5-7 if we find a round about way? Reading this info makes me think it might be only another hour or two to get the cover off?

3. Should I replace the timing chain? 168K miles on it now, I guess it doesn't hurt while we have the cover off, right? Anything else we should/could do while he is in there to help extend the life??


References
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209508

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287216


a little bit from here too
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391677

thanks!
 



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boy, if the engine is coming out the "might as well" list is going to get huge.

Oil pump and screen
water pump
timing chain
intake gaskets
injector o rings
thermostat
rear main seal
transmission front seal
 






haha yeah, well, the goal is to keep the engine in and remove the timing cover by removing the harmonic balancer and loosening the oil pan (if that is correct..). Debating if I'm willing to spend the 1K on labor to take the engine out.

I wasn't very clear in the first post- we were going in for a water pump replacement since it was leaking, then 2 bolts snapped and here we are.
 






It is entirely possible to remove (and replace) the timing cover with the engine in place, but it requires patience and attention to detail. If your truck is AWD, you can't remove more than front bolts on the oil pan. The rubber seal between the round bottom surface of the timing cover and pan and will fight you, because it sits in a shallow groove in the oil pan. Don't bang on the timing cover -- it's thin aluminum and will break. Instead, try gently prying the lip of the timing cover in that area when disassembling and apply some oil when reassembling.
The biggest challenge of this job is properly sealing the bottom corners, or oil will splash out of there. Some had luck keeping the original pan seal and just adding RTV; others cut it and use the lame-looking cork pieces provided by Felpro. If you use the cork, don't torque more than 10 ft-lb, to prevent squeezing it out.
The other challenge is the narrow sections of the paper gasket around the water passages at the top. They tend to fail after installation, especially if the bolts are not properly torqued and leave a little gap for the coolant to get through. Once it gets through, the bolts rust and break when trying to remove them next time. You should probably apply some Locktite to these bolts, to prevent backing up (don't ask me how I know...)

Having said that, I don't know how difficult it is to remove your two snapped bolts. Access to that area with the engine in the truck is difficult, and you may be better off pulling the engine out just for this reason. This will, of course make the timing cover job much easier, and allow you to do more maintenance as well.

haha yeah, well, the goal is to keep the engine in and remove the timing cover by removing the harmonic balancer and loosening the oil pan (if that is correct..). Debating if I'm willing to spend the 1K on labor to take the engine out.

I wasn't very clear in the first post- we were going in for a water pump replacement since it was leaking, then 2 bolts snapped and here we are.
 






Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to go ahead with letting him pull the engine to get the bolts out. That brings up the question - what to prioritize. Turdle had some ideas, all in all, adding the parts cost for those shouldn't be much right? Anything you guys would prioritize for the extra replacements?
 






The two bolts that generally break are not "structural" and it is perfectly acceptable and possible to make a long-term economical repair without removing the cover. Took me maybe an additional hour to repair mine 3 years ago with no ill effects, and would dare anyone to look at the engine with the naked eye and tell otherwise.

Bill
 






The two bolts that generally break are not "structural" and it is perfectly acceptable and possible to make a long-term economical repair without removing the cover. Took me maybe an additional hour to repair mine 3 years ago with no ill effects, and would dare anyone to look at the engine with the naked eye and tell otherwise.

Bill

Not sure I completely follow...You mean you could remove them w/o removing the cover or that you were able to leave them in broken?

One thing that has just dawned on me, when I went to the shop to look at it, it was in the lot, but everything was completely put back together so I couldn't look at the broken off bolts. Just surprised they would put everything back so well because I thought it took an hour+ to get to the water pump. Not sure I really have any other good options though since it is immobile at his shop
 






Leave them in broken; seal the corresponding water pump holes. Worth a shot vs. $1500 labor, though I can't blame him/her for wanting to do it the "correct" way for a paying customer.

Bill
 






AWD or RWD?

You CAN get the timing cover off when the engine installed, even with AWD. But its not easy.

The problem is that there are dowel pins between the cover and engine, so you have to drop the oil pan sufficiently to allow these pins to line up. You can get away with a lot more if you have the stamped steel oil pan. I had the cast aluminum pan which has virtually no flex, so I had to loosen up the entire pan to get it to drop down. I was not able to do the repair as described in Fel-pro's kit, I don't think its possible. IN fact I broke my timing cover trying to do it their way.

With the AWD pumpkin in the way, prepare to fight to loosen up all of the bolts. You will probably look at them the first time and wonder how the FRICK that's physically possible. I did it with creative use of swivel sockets and extensions. With RWD, loosening up the pan is trivial.

I would try to do the repair with the engine in place personally. Regarding the timing chain, you might as well replace it. Its very little extra labor, maybe 15-30 minutes and the chain kit is not expensive either.
 






I replaced my water pump last month without taking out the radiator, only the shroud and fan had to be removed.
 






For what it's worth, I just replaced the timing cover
gasket and gear set this last weekend. 5 liter AWD.

Couple of things:

Do remove the radiator. The extra room is very
helpful. Particularly if you use an impact wrench
to get the crank bolt off. (yes it does work. PB
blaster first though)

No accessory brackets need to be removed.
Timing cover is held in by most of the water
pump bolts, 2 regular bolts going into the block,
2 "stud top" bolts going into the block, and
most importantly 4 bolts going up thru the
oil pan into the timing cover. As you may
know, there are two alignment dowels near
the bottom of the timing cover going into
the block. So, the timing cover has to be
pried forward to break the seal and clear
the dowels. Use thin plastic wedges.
(like one might use for interior trim work)
pull the top of the timing cover away from
the block and slip the wedges in both sides
as far down as you can. Then tap the
top of the timing cover with a rubber mallet.
Back and forth like this will slowly wedge
the cover off.

By the way, I also just loosened one bolt back
on each side of the oil pan. Didn't have to
loosen all of them.

I had a one piece silicone/metal oil pan gasket.
I bought the Felpro gasket set. I ended up
just using the new rubber gasket that goes
around the curved part of the timing cover.
Use tin snips to cut the silicone/metal back
just enough to mate up with the curved rubber
gasket. I skipped the Felpro cork corner
gaskets all together.

Carefully clean above and below the stock
pan gasket with a rag soaked with a degreaser.
Use a short putty knife to get gasket sealant under
the stock pan gasket. Use RTV sealant at the
corners of the timing cover. i.e. just below the
alignment dowels and the joint between the
curved rubber gasket and the stock silicone/metal
pan gasket.

The damper can be reinstalled using the nut, no
special tool is needed. Just be sure to line up
the keyway.

Sorry, that took longer than I thought.
Hope this helps someone in the future.
 






Do remove the radiator. The extra room is very
helpful. Particularly if you use an impact wrench
to get the crank bolt off. (yes it does work. PB
blaster first though)

A few comments:

1) If one is considering removing the radiator and fighting those insane "funny pack" latches, an alternative may be to simply remove it with the a/c condenser attached as an assembly, which is super-easy. It is illegal to dump the refrigerant into the atmosphere, but any a/c shop will evacuate it for you before you start the job. When you go back to recharge, they will discount the cost of gas, so the whole deal shouldn't cost more than their labor - probably around $50. May be a good opportunity to check the a/c system for leaks while you are there...

2) Extra-short impact wrenches that fit between the pulley and the radiator are available. Could be $100 well spent, considering their usefulness in other tight spots.

3) I would not recommend using the center bolt (it's not a nut) as a tool to pull the pulley back in place. It will initially engage only a couple threads, and the risk of damaging the crankshaft is not worth it. The cheaper remover/installer sold by the parts stores is too long to fit with the radiator in place (if you do it that way), but the better quality one (rented for free by some places) will fit.

4) I would not use an impact wrench to torque the center bolt after installation, because it may easily end up significantly overtorqued. The shop manual tells to use a strap wrench around the pulley to prevent the engine from rotation, but I have yet to find a strap wrench that can hold 100+ ft-lb. Some reported using a screwdriver against a starter ring tooth, but it sounds crude to me. My solution was to improvise a holding tool made from a piece of flat steel, attached by a couple bolts to the threaded holes in the pulley, and long enough to rest against the frame. You'll need to grind a small recess to allow the socket extension to go through.
 






Question: do the holes in the block the dowel pins fit in go all the way through? On the Cadillac big blocks, I do the timing chain covers without removing the pan or disturbing the gasket by driving the pins all the way through and retrieving them with a magnet. Small task to reinstall when putting it all back together. Reseal the bottom with RTV and good to go.

Bill
 






To be precise, the dowels are actually tubes.
About 3/8 diameter and roughly 3/8 long.
They are set into the block and correspond to
holes in the timing cover. The tubes are
steel and substantial. The tubes are not
visible until the timing cover is removed.

I found it easier to push down on one
side of the timing cover and matching
up one pin and then pushing down the
other to align its pin. Loosening some
of the nearby oil pan bolts will help.
 






I just did this job in February, in my garage, in the cold. It was not fun.

I removed the alternator and pulleys on that side as well as the brackets. I removed the bolts from the A/C accessory side and lifted the bracket a couple of inches - this wasn't really necessary in retrospect.

I removed the rad, but left the AC condensor in.

I removed the water pump bolts (that weren't broken) removed the crank sensor and removed all the timing cover bolts, including the 4 that come from underneath from the oil pan. Then I cut the timing cover along the bolt that was broken to remove it. With some heat and penetrating oil, the stuck bolt came out fairly easily at this point. There was still plenty of swearing involved, of course.

I installed a new timing cover, new timing chain, left the dowel pins out, and coated every gasket surface with 'The Right Stuff' as and used Fel-Pro gaskets. All bolts were liberally coated with anti-seize.

I had no problems with the AWD pumpkin at all. It didn't enter the equation at all.

All in I probably spent 30 hours on the job. However, I'm very slow, and this was the first big job I'd ever done on the Explorer. I did a similar job on my Mustang a couple years earlier and it was probably 5 hours.
 






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