A Modest proposal for those 5R55E Owners - EPC Solenoid Replacement Proposal

[dogfriend]

I'm interested,

But

What happens if the new design isn't so good? Are we then on our own?

And if installing their unit still fails, will they foot the bill for the repairs?

Basically, that was my question earlier - will "they" assume any liability if the new part fails?

 

[Glacier991]

The range of potentials in an older transmission failure are extensive, and many have nothing whatsoever to do with an EPC failing. It would make no sense to give someone a replacement EPC of a new design and expect to potentially foot a bill of a couple thousand dollars should the transmission fail. So I think it fair to assume that if you want to test this new EPC, you will not have a recourse to claim that a subsequent failure of the transmission is due to the EPC. Of course, if you buy a brand new BOSCH model for about $125, and replace the EPC and it later fails, do you think BOSCH is going to pay you to rebuild your transmission?

I think the risk of a tranny failing due to replcing the EPC are near zero, but everyone gets to assess the risks on their own. If you are hesitant then don't do it - it's that simple.

And I think the idea is to provide you a solenoid, not installation, etc. If you aren't up to it, again, take a pass. I'm not trying to coerce anyone.

 

[97greenmonster]

Another question, are they looking for healthy trannies/ i have 129,000 on my 5R55E, and have no problems, no slippage what-so-ever. What gains would be be getting my participating in this?

 

[dogfriend]

The range of potentials in an older transmission failure are extensive, and many have nothing whatsoever to do with an EPC failing. It would make no sense to give someone a replacement EPC of a new design and expect to potentially foot a bill of a couple thousand dollars should the transmission fail. So I think it fair to assume that if you want to test this new EPC, you will not have a recourse to claim that a subsequent failure of the transmission is due to the EPC. Of course, if you buy a brand new BOSCH model for about $125, and replace the EPC and it later fails, do you think BOSCH is going to pay you to rebuild your transmission?

I think the risk of a tranny failing due to replcing the EPC are near zero, but everyone gets to assess the risks on their own. If you are hesitant then don't do it - it's that simple.

And I think the idea is to provide you a solenoid, not installation, etc. If you aren't up to it, again, take a pass. I'm not trying to coerce anyone.

I'm not necessarily being critical, just one of the thoughts that I had. I agree that they cannot be held fully responsible for a unrelated failure in a high mileage transmission. But, there is a risk involved regardless.

Maybe I should wait until more info is available to better assess the risk. I am interested and would like to know more about the design improvement compared to the OEM solenoid.

What type of time frame are we talking about for the new part to be available?

 

[IZwack]

Also, whats the time frame for testing from beginning to end? Not that I really care too much but my Explorer, if chosen to test the new solenoid design, only does maybe 20 miles a month of street (to get gas) and everything else is off-road. So per say, on a 6-month time frame, my Explorer will only run a few hundred miles at best - most of which will be in 4LO. So I dunno if I'd qualify being that this solenoid would get very low miles (but hopefully very hard punishing miles of rocks)

 

[whoathere]

I'm willing to participate. You'd think that if you have the 2-3 issue, and you replace it with this new design EPC..then if the new EPC fails, it would probably do the 2-3 shift flare issue again? That's what I'd think anyway.

And of course, the sooner the better.

 

[Glacier991]

Let me try and provide what information I can here. First of all, to answer Dogfriend - the design of the new EPC is a two stage design where the back and forth movement of the solenoid... well, let me quote what is said about the 5R55E EPC and the new design:

Regarding the design of the 5R55E Stock EPC ... "the device is inherently weak due to the fact that the only force available to push the spool in a direction to increase the pressure comes from the armature spring, which itself must be relatively weak so that it can be overcome by magnetic force so that the output pressure can be varied over its working range (like 90psi to 0psi) as directed by the computer. And this weakness means that the part is going to be sensitive to contaminants that obstruct the smooth motion of the spool as well as any extra friction that might come from the surface of the spool bore being marred up over time. The spool itself is "anodized" which puts a very hard and wear resistant coating on the aluminum. On the other hand, two stage solenoids, such as the one used in the 4R70W (AODE) transmission, are quite robust against these issues since there is considerable hydraulic force available to move the spool through any contaminants that might build up around it, and the armature only has to act against the small force of hydraulic pressure coming through a small area (the poppet). This design comes with the compromise of higher "inlet pressure sensitivity (how much the output pressure changes as a result of supply pressure changes) and some built in leakage (usually not significant), but transmissions like the GM 4L60E and 4L80E and the Ford 4R70W/4R75 (and the CD4E) use this style and they really don't have any EPC wear issues."

For 97GreenMonster: Now as for the benefits of replacement in a "well tranny" - you know the stock EPC has a useful lifespan. If you are over 75,000 miles you are into the end life (which can maybe 80, 90 or 130K miles... but it IS coming). By changing the EPC you may well buy time and avoid slippage and shift flare for many more miles. A better shifting tranny is a longer lived tranny as well.

For IZWACK: How long a test? I'll find out.

For Dogfriend and Whoathere: How soon? I'll find out. I was gauging interest first.

 

[97greenmonster]

How much will it cost us to install, and will we have to remove it when the testing is over with?

 

[Glacier991]

It is an easy DIY install... and once you get it, it's yours. I imagine a shop might charge you an hour to install one if you were reluctant to DIY.

Now some bad news. I just heard from the company rep and he indicated that their lawyers are balking at this project - they want more actual time on the solenoids in a "company controlled" test environment before letting us participate (they didn't say no, just cautiously, "not yet")... so they may not be available for us for at least a couple months.

He did apologize to those who had to buy expensive Bosch models in the meanwhile.

I'll keep you all posted, meanwhile I am still loooking for interested participants.

 

[BrooklynBay]

I don't think they want them back after they are used.

 

[zhanx]

well glacier i guess we'll have to wait and see, i'll let you know when i am no longer "in" on this.

 

[Bent Bolt]

Regarding the design of the 5R55E Stock EPC ... "the device is inherently weak due to the fact that the only force available to push the spool in a direction to so that it can be overcome by magnetic force so that the output pressure can be varied over its working range (like 90psi to 0psi) as directed by the computer. And this weakness means that the part is going to be sensitive to contaminants that obstruct the smooth motion of the spool as well as any extra friction that might come from the surface of the spool bore being marred up over time. The spool itself is "anodized" which puts a very hard and wear resistant coating on the aluminum. On the other hand, two stage solenoids, such as the one used in the 4R70W (AODE) transmission, are quite robust against these issues since there is considerable hydraulic force available to move the spool through any contaminants that might build up around it, and the armature only has to act against the small force of hydraulic pressure coming through a small area (the poppet). This design comes with the compromise of higher "inlet pressure sensitivity (how much the output pressure changes as a result of supply pressure changes) and some built in leakage (usually not significant), but transmissions like the GM 4L60E and 4L80E and the Ford 4R70W/4R75 (and the CD4E) use this style and they really don't have any EPC wear issues."

I will confirm that in my professional opinion that the 4R70W/4R75W ,CD4E and for that matter, the E4OD/4R100 do not for the most part have problems with the EPC solenoid. I'll be honest and say I do not know the inner workings of how these solenoids work but in my line of work, it doesn't really matter--get it fixed and get onto the next job.
The therory of how the "increase the pressure comes from the armature spring, which itself must be relatively weak" speaks volumes to me. If that spring becomes weak-- which most springs will over time--then that will cause line pressure problems which will compound the problem of the spool valve not returning back.
I think the idea of installing the Ford service kit-- removing the orginial EPC limit valve and installing the improved blow-off valve-- is an effort to mask the fact the EPC solenoid does "spike" pressures and blow out the valvebody gasket. Why does the solenoid spike the pressures?? Probably due to minor contamination and that weak "armature spring".

Ugg!! Too much thinking for after work!!!. I need a beer !!!!

I do want to get my hands on one -- for research if anything.

 

[Ranger379]

same part for the 4R55E right? (1995 4x4)? is so i might be in if its not that hard to change

 

[Glacier991]

Excellent Q Ranger379. I'll give you a qualified "yes" and find out.

Bent Bolt.... I think I might score you one to play with. <g>

 

[Ranger379]

Excellent Q Ranger379. I'll give you a qualified "yes" and find out.

Bent Bolt.... I think I might score you one to play with. <g>

ok, ya as long as its the same part, its not too hard to change is it (never had a tranny apart before) cant take too long as its not my truck, but a thats a really good idea that u came up with, help ford, and get us cheap parts

 

[Glacier991]

Ranger 379: Actually it isn't FORD. I have asked for permission to say who it is.

 

[BrooklynBay]

When these parts finally reach the market, will Ford dealers sell them, or will they always stay aftermarket? If that would be the case, then how would you know if you are getting the newer, improved version compared to the older, troublesome version? Would places like Transmission Parts USA sell them if this company decides to choose them as a distributor?

 

[Glacier991]

When these parts finally reach the market, will Ford dealers sell them, or will they always stay aftermarket? If that would be the case, then how would you know if you are getting the newer, improved version compared to the older, troublesome version? Would places like Transmission Parts USA sell them if this company decides to choose them as a distributor?

I doubt FORD would sell them... I suspect they will stay aftermarket.

I think there will be clear differences that will give them away.

I'd certainly do what I could to assist places I do business with to carry the newer version. Retail pricing will be an interesting Q - stay tuned, we might have a voice.

 

[97greenmonster]

Count me in if its an easy DIY install. Im on the Novice level with my truck. so if i can do it. im in.

 

[gijoecam]

For the record, I only asked the questions I did out of curiosity... I'm in if or when it ever comes to be. If they can use me as a test bed and it's not too much trouble to install (on a scale of 1-10, maybe a 5-6) I'm sure I can handle it. From the sounds of it, it's not too difficult, I'd just need a GOOD set of instructions, that's all. I'm completely green when it comes to transmissions, but I'm a machine repairman by trade, so I'm not scared, I've just never done it before.

What kind of feedback would they want back from us as the test fleet?

-Joe