A4ld Tranny 2nd gear Specific Problem and Questions

[custom20aj]

Alright. I licensed my 1992 Explorer, and drove it around to try and be as specific as possible with my problem I posted 3/22 (no replies). As stated before, the tranny was fine for the previous owner until the front seal blew and dumped tranny fluid all at once. Here's the specifics:

1st, drive and overdrive are all strong. 2nd is basically neutral (you can tell it's trying to work). Starting out, I have to get the rpm's up in first gear around 3500, take my foot of the gas, let the rpm's drop to about 1000, hit the gas slowly, and voila', I'm in drive. Drive and overdrive shift back and forth fine. If I kick it down in drive, 2nd kicks in again as basically neutral.

From what I've read here, I get the feeling it could be the 1-2 shift valve. Is this correct, or is it possible to lose the bands on just one gear? Can the bands be tightened or repaired with the tranny in the vehicle? Can the 1-2 shift valve be repaired with the tranny in the vehicle? What do you recommend?

Also, if we'd get some decent weather (I'm a driveway fixer) I'd crawl under it again to look, but maybe someone can tell me how many electronic solenoids are on this tranny. I only saw wires going to one, but I did not have a flashlight at the time.

Thanks,
A.J.

 

[Glacier991]

To start, there are 2 solenoids neither are likely in play in your problem. You didn't mention if you have manual 2nd. The intermediate band and servo are suspect here, unless it works fine in manual 2nd, in which case the band and servo is/are probably ok.

Next comes valve body. slow or sticky spools can account for some of your issues..as can the governor... spools involved: 1-2 shift (bore 204), 3-2 backout (bore 211), ad the intermediate servo accumuator release valve (bore 216). [Bores listed for reference ease if you have a VB chart]

TN_Explorer did a fine writeup on a valve body rebuild. With pix. I tried to get them to put it in useful threads, without success (HINT!!!). If you have manual 2nd, I'd rebuild the valve body and clean the governor. If not, let's drop the pan and explore the band....and servo (a *****).

 

[custom20aj]

Thanks for your assistance. Starting off in manual 2nd, 1st will stay engaged until I do the rpm trick, then 2nd is basically neutral. The same with going from drive back to 2nd manually. Going around 50mph and shifting from drive back to 2nd manually, I can play with the gas to finally get 2nd to hold it's own on a flat, but that's it (any more rpm's and it slips).

The part I'm not understanding from all the threads, is if the intermediate band and servo are bad, would that stop 1st from shifting to 2nd automatically? In drive shoudn't I expect it to shift out of first into second anyway (which would be like going into neutral)?

Basically from what I described, should I pull the pan with the tranny on the Explorer, or do you think the repair will involve removal of the tranny? If so, I may as well pull it before removing the pan.

Thank,
A.J.

 

[Glacier991]

I you could NEVER get 2nd to work, I'd think bad band. That it does, brings the rest into the mix. You might well get this remedied IN CAR.

 

[custom20aj]

I've got a big problem now! I finally got to working on this tranny. I pulled the valve body out, removed ALL the valves, and cleaned it. I didn't pay attention to how it came apart since I knew Glacier and TN_Explorer had pictures. When I went to reassemble it, I printed out both valve body journals, and tried to put it together. I am putting it back together stock for now, since I'm not sure it will fix my problem. Glacier's pics are excellent, but there were two valves not removed, which I did remove. Also, I was able to figure out the stock booster valve. The problems encountered: I counted the turns on the springs in the picture to try and find out which spring went where. The scary part is there are springs with the same amount of turns, but different tension. At this point, I would be happy to get the tranny back to at least working the way it was. We have been driving it without 2nd gear, which really isn't a problem (even up hills). Where it IS a problem, is going down hills the brakes have to do all the work (no holdback from 2nd).

Is there a schematic I can get to show me all the valves? I believe I have all but a few correct (3 more to put together), but I may have to disassemble a few to get everything right. I should have put each valve in a separate bag, but did not. I threw them all in one tray to clean, thinking the pictures would be enough.

What do I do?

 

[Glacier991]

My best advice is get to a tranny parts supply house and buy the TransGo shift kit... the schematic in it is VERY detailed, and it won;t cost ya over $25.

 

[custom20aj]

The link below describes my symptoms exactly. Amac may have described them better than I did.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138238&highlight=valve+body

Glacier,
This is what I plan to do. Please let me know if I am wasting my time. I bought another valve body from mmerlin on Ebay the other night, just after you did. From reading your threads, it will need examined closely as well. This will give me another one to compare to mine to make sure assembly is correct. I can also choose the best parts of the two. I'm planning to get the Transgo A4ld junior kit and the Sonnax boost valve upgrade. How important is the manual indexer, or can I skip it for now? These steps will cover the valve body.

Next, I plan to check the governor while I await the valve body.

I would also like to tighten the band, but need to know how. Will I need a new nut? In your reassembly, you mentioned you would explain a non-factory recommended way to do that, but I never found where you explained it.

If none of these work, I guess it's a total rebuild. The reason I ask if the above steps are worth a try, is I don't want to put it back together to get the valve body, filter, and gaskets dirty, if you think I will end up going the whole way.

The best way I can explain when I pull the shifter manually from Drive to second is: at 45mph 3000 rpm, I can notice a very slight difference between second and neutral.

This is my wife's primary vehicle. Luckily, I have a Motorcycle so as long as it doesn't rain, we can manage. The other problem right now is money (or the fact I don't have any). They are running sewage through my township, and are charging me $6000.00 to do it (3 hook-ups on my property). That is why I am reluctant to spend too much at the moment.

I REALLY appreciate everyone's help.

 

[Glacier991]

The A4LD Diary shows the procedure to adjust a band. Simply put, clean the threads really well, hold the adjusting bolt steady and loosen the locknut as you do. I recommend replacing the locknut as the seal will be toast once you remove it. Costs about $2. to adjust tighten to 10 ft lbs, then back off TWO turns, hold that position and tighten locknut.

Manual valve indexer... I like it, but can easily be added later when you have more dough. It costs $21. Check the manual valve Z link hole... it is it at ALL elongated from round, then I recommend the indexer highly.

 

[custom20aj]

Alright, I'm gettin' into this! I have ordered the Transgo Jr. kit, the Sonnax booster valve, and the seperator gaskets online from:

http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/

We don't have any local tranny shops.

When they get here, I'm ready to go at it!!!!

I was lying on the ground looking up at the tranny (still in vehicle), and took some pictures. Since I can't figure out how to put them here, I will send them to Glacier.

The bands seem intact, but awfully loose (especially the OD band, which is not causing me any problems). I also was able to check that my new shift modulator valve was installed correctly.

What else can I check from the bottom?

Here's my current questions:

1) The auto store gave me Dexron III / Mercon ATF. Is this the correct fluid?

2) I did not see that little pencil point filter when I tore the valve body down. Where do you get it?

3) My band bolts are pretty rusty. Can I remove them safely to clean up the threads, or do I have to support the band in place?

4) What about the servo's. Can I check them somehow without removal? What powers them (let me guess... The valve body)?

5) I'm figuring the band locknuts are a dealer item. Is that right?

 

[Glacier991]

1. yes
2. Might check and see if the dealer or a trans parts house has one.
3. You can remove them carefully and replace them. [Edit - advice changed, see 2 threads down]
4. No there is no way to "check them". and yes VB.
6. A trans shop will charge you about $3 ea... not sure what a dealer would get. PM me I will send you a couple but after postage you may be better off locally.

 

[custom20aj]

2. I called the same place I got the transgo, etc.. (above), and they had them at $1.95 each, so I ordered two.

6. I really appreciate the offer. The local Ford dealer wanted $3.01 each, so I had them order two.

I should be set until the parts arrive. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Glacier991]

Ya know, come to think of it.... I'm not gonna recommend you back the adjusting bolts out too far.... I mean the anchor COULD fall out of position. The good news, you can get it back in position with the pan off.... the bad news, taking the pan off. So my "new" advice is wirebrush and clean em real good but do not back them off.

 

[custom20aj]

Well, I do have the pan off since I'm doing the VB rebuild, and can see where the adjusting bolts are. I can hold the bands in place with a shim while I remove and clean the bolts.

Here's a problem: I meant to order the large boost valve WITH o-rings, but accidentally got the one without (56947-03K). Should I NOT use this one, and order the one WITH o-rings???

 

[Glacier991]

Ok, if you can visualize where they go, carefully study it and go ahead and remove the bolts. The band won't slip. it is just the anchors that might move. As for the boost valve, order the one WITH O rings!!! By all means!

 

[custom20aj]

56947-02k WITH o-rings is ordered. I'm going to clean up the band bolts today.

I wish there was a way I could check the intermediate servo without removal. From everything I read on your posts, If I do the VB rebuild, Check the tighteness of the bands, check the governor, and the intermediate servo, there's a good chance I'll get second gear back. Did I forget anything?

I can see the end of the Intermediate servo where the pin comes out to push the band. It's currently flush with the inside wall of the tranny (so is the OD servo pin). Will it move at all if I push in on it, to see if the Servo is stuck?

 

[custom20aj]

Okay, this much is done:

VB rebuild using different VB from mmerlin on Ebay.
Sonnax booster valve with o-rings.
Transgo A4ld JR kit. Used everything we could with tranny still in car.
Adjusted the bands.

Status:

Still no second (It is a little stronger, but still slips BAD).
Will not shift on it's own with gas applied (have to let off the RPM's FOR ANY GEAR).
Reverse NOW has a delay (didn't before, and we did discard the old spring and clip).
I turned the intermediate band one turn tighter and drove for a mile in second gear to see if there was any difference... there was none, so I put it back.

Any ideas??? I don't care about the reverse delay, JUST second and shifting. What exactly does the Governor do?? Thats next if you think I should look at it.

Thanks.

 

[custom20aj]

If I drop the transfer case from the tranny without emptying either, does anyone know if I'll get soaked?

Is there a gasket on the bottom of the governor?

 

[custom20aj]

Well, I jacked up the back of the EX so the fluid was all towards the front. I didn't get wet at all! Also, no gasket on the bottom of the governor.

The governor is okay. I played with the intermediate band tightness, without change UNTIL I tightened it to where it was snug. When I put it in reverse to back out of the garage, it was tight to where when I left off the gas, it would stop immediately (like hitting the brakes). I drove it in second gear for a mile, and second had all kinds of power, but I could tell it wasn't right in the other gears. I backed it off a 1/4 turn, and everything went back to the original problems. I backed the band off to spec., and plan to check the intermediate servo tomorrow. From everything I did, it points to the servo being stuck. More to come.....

 

[custom20aj]

Mine is fixed. The intermediate servo seal was like hard plastic instead of rubber, and a 1" piece was broken off and laying at the bottom of the servo hole. The servo came in Saturday (nice and flexible), I put it together, and everything works fine. Man, am I happy!
The servo actually comes as one piece minus the spring, cover, and cover o-ring. Here's a picture:

http://www.transhardparts.com/parts/parts/56528M.htm

This is where i got it, since we don't have any big tranny shops nearby:

https://www.transmissionpartsusa.co...e=230-00023952B

They needed to know the two letters on the cover (mine were BB). We bought our Ex cheap because of the problem, and now it is so nice to drive it without playing with the gas pedal to go from 1st to 3rd.

Knowing what I know now, this is what I would have done first with the symptoms I had:

1) Leave the tranny in the car (mine still was).
2) Put the car in neutral.
3) Climb under and spin the rear drive shaft by hand Both Ways to feel how free it is.
4) Tighten the intermediate band bolt until the rear drive shaft gets too hard to turn one way by hand (clockwise if looking towards the front). It will still turn free the other way. It should only take about two full turns of tightening the band bolt for you to feel the bolt getting snug, and the shaft getting hard to turn (make sure you backed the locknut off enough for it not to impede your tightening of the bolt). Glacier explains the band bolts well in his rebuild diary PART 3 2ND HALF (PAGE 3). Here is the thread for the whole diary (good reading) http://www.explorerforum.com/forums...d+rebuild+diary
If the shaft gets hard to turn one way as described, I would assume the band is intact (I did, but then I drove mine to confirm it, in manual 2nd only, and 2nd was there completely. I DO NOT recommend driving it, though. The shaft getting hard to spin is indication enough).
5) Back it off 1/2 turn after the shaft spins freely by hand with the same amount of effort both ways. Tighten the locknut, making sure the bolt does not turn with it. When all is said and done, you will need to replace the locknut with a new one, but not yet. Take it for a short drive (1 mile) and see if there is any change (mine didn't have any).
5) Since mine had no change, I assumed the intermediate servo was not pushing in to tighten the band, which activates second gear.
6) Pull the intermediate servo and inspect it for damage, sticking, etc... This can be easily done in car if you drop the catalytic converter (the hardest part). Again, refer to Glacier's rebuild (same page as before). Voila! My outer seal on the piston was hard as plastic, and there was a chunk missing out of it laying in the bottom of the servo hole!
7)If the servo was the problem, replace it (actually, it's worth replacing anyway. It was only about $8.00). I don't have the tool Glacier shows, but to put it back in car I ended up using a prybar. My brother pushed the servo in, and I held it in place with the prybar against the frame while he put the snap ring back on.
8) Put the band bolt back to spec. (using Glacier's rebuild once again (same page as before), and drive it.
9) If 2nd gear works fine, replace the band locknut with a new one (keeping the band bolt at Glacier's spec)

If the servo would have been fine, I was thinking about having someone start it and put it in manual second (with the brake applied), the servo still removed, and checking for fluid coming into the servo area. I don't know how good that would've worked, but with everything I did, I figured all I had left were fluid passages possibly clogged.

Starting over, I would have looked at the above steps first, then the governor, then the valve body.

One other thing I did: Since I didn't have a delay in reverse before I did the Transgo Jr. update, I pulled the pan and undid the reverse piston update (put the old spring and circlip back in). Voila! No more delay. I don't understand, but I'm happy.

Kudos and many thanks to Glacier for all his time and assistance. I hope I can pay it forward.

 

[custom20aj]

Just a follow up to this thread. My intermediate servo was hard as plastic with a piece missing causing no 2nd gear. My OD servo was the same causing almost a total loss of overdrive. My explorer does NOT have a heat shield between the catalytic and tranny. The servo's were cheap and easy to replace.

Glacier: I see a lot of similar cases to mine, and maybe they should check the servo's first if they're missing the heat shield.

As far as saying before that: One other thing I did: Since I didn't have a delay in reverse before I did the Transgo Jr. update, I pulled the pan and undid the reverse piston update (put the old spring and circlip back in). Voila! No more delay. I don't understand, but I'm happy.
I UNDERSTAND NOW. It took some time to figure out the dipstick. It was low on fluid.
Being two quarts down, the fluid sprays up enough to make the tranny "look" full. After some practice, I could tell when it really is full.