ABS - Who needs it?

[jrowe6]

http://www.autoweb.co.uk/article/536

http://www.nhtsa.gov/Research/Light+Vehicle+Antilock+Brake+Systems+(ABS)+Research+Program

there is very little conclusive data on the topic. statistics are just numbers and do not take into account all variables in all situations.

 

[storlied]

Good article. Maybe some people will learn something.

 

[storlied]

i dont really understand the argument for no abs. my abs works how it is supposed to, and i know how to use it properly and i know exactly how it behaves. in no situation i have ever been in would i ever prefer a 4 wheel lockup to having control and stability. majority of the time your abs should not be doing anything. how many people are seriously slamming the brakes so hard the tires are locking up? the only time mine kicks on is when conditions are poor, and i use it to my advantage in such situations, i know i can press the pedal as hard as i want and not lock the tires up, which means i can count on a specific amount of controlled braking. this allows me to concentrate on maneuvers and reading the road while at the same time getting good consistent braking that is uniform and precise.

abs or not, at any given moment you have a specific amount of traction. you will make a far more substantial difference in the handling and braking characteristics of your vehicle by running the proper tires at the proper psi than trying to manually control when your tires might lock up. as for stoping distance, if you dont have enough you are tailgating, or maybe you should slow down....

as for the guy who said you dont think abs will help the people who react by mashing the brakes. do you think it would be better for those people to lock up all 4 tires and start spinning in circles on the highway every time they flip out about someone doing something stupid ahead of them?

someone explain to me where no abs is beneficial, i for sure do not see the light

Have you not read my previous posts? ABS won't be as beneficial in gravel, dirt, tons of snow.. lots of different situations when digging your tires in can be good. Like on a downhill slope of crappy ground. Needing to stop before the bottom. Go ahead, try it. Then pull one of your sensor plugs to turn ABS off and see what differences you notice.

We can sit here n say this and that from our perspective and experience but before you choose one side or the other... how about you try both worlds in many conditions and terrains.

 

[Rudy602]

jrowe6, Thanks for posting those links. They seem to give a fairly balanced account of the data and some plausible explanations as to why vehicles equipped with ABS are more likely to be involved in certain kinds of crashes [esp.fatalaties]. Still, that is just conjecture, the fact remains that ABS is not the technological Godsend that many would have you believe it is. In the NHTSA link you posted it says something about it being widely known that vehicles equipped with ABS have poorer performance on gravel and snow. In the previous quote from the '04 Explorer owner's manual, it said at the end how it didn't reduce stopping distance. You said you were looking for an instance when it might be beneficial not to have ABS, - one of those might qualify.

 

[waskly]

Have you not read my previous posts? ABS won't be as beneficial in gravel, dirt, tons of snow.. lots of different situations when digging your tires in can be good. Like on a downhill slope of crappy ground. Needing to stop before the bottom. Go ahead, try it. Then pull one of your sensor plugs to turn ABS off and see what differences you notice.

We can sit here n say this and that from our perspective and experience but before you choose one side or the other... how about you try both worlds in many conditions and terrains.

how is not being able to maneuver a vehicle due to wheel locked up better then being able to steer a vehicle?


one of them you are just at the mercy of nothing with your life in danger, the other you have some control of the car, you can still steer it.

when the wheels lock up, on sand, snow (ice is different), or wet roads, you go into a slide, the truck will do what it wants to. turn most likely also to the first tire locked up with zero traction.

so now you are sliding side ways, with steering wheel input meaning nothing.
how is this better, then if you steer the vehicle you can control it, and you stop straight?

even with abs i can still hit a snow bank and stop, its the same as digging tires in!

 

[storlied]

It's not just full on lock-up [without abs] off-road, you have Complete control of your brakes, you can lockup.. dig in some to slow your speed.. release and turn to avoid tree or something.. lockup or use as much pressure with Some digging in while still getting traction. Kinda hard to explain but I hope that kinda gives ya of an example, control especially. With the weight of your vehicle, if you're going downhill.. gravity is going to fight.. and ABS will keep you rolling a great amount of distance unless you dig in a bit by using your brakes with ABS turned off. You Can do more with your brakes with ABS turned off in certain situation. Google it. You'll find other off-roaders much prefer to kill the ABS in that situation. You live in a city, don't you? For city, highway.. any in town kinda driving ABS can be great. But it's not great for Everything.

Also, if you get into the real nasty stuff enough, you gain experience to Use a skid to your advantage, even put yourself into one to move the way you need to. You'll see it a lot here. Some situations can call for it. Other times, people are just skidding in fear and just freezing up not knowing what to do. That's who ABS is for, if you had no ABS and you panicked like that then surely you'd slide straight for another car and that's that.

 

[jrowe6]

well, this is obviously a matter of opinion and preference more than anything. i dont think any of us can make an argument so strongly for one side or the other that would ever end this discussion.

so here is my opinion based on my experiences.
i do have experience in various conditions with and without abs. for me, i feel i can do more to adapt to increased stopping distance than to adapt to potential lock up situations. the abs system can do an amazing job of maintaining enough wheel spin to keep control while still providing uniform braking, where i can not do a very good job. on the other hand, at the moment, the car cannot do much to force me to drive at an appropriate speed per the current driving conditions. meaning i have direct control of stopping distance based on my speed, where as i have extremely limited control over lockup.

i for sure have no beef with the argument for non abs when off roading. but on the road, especially at high speeds, i really just cannot see an advantage of being without it when i can easily adjust for its few drawbacks. stopping distance is more dependant on velocity and your tires coefficient of friction than any other factor. if abs increases stoping distance by 3% you can get right back to that original stoping distance by lowering your speed 2-3%. i feel like that is far more managable and controllable than trying to manually control your skid steer or lockup. some things you can adjust for easily, effectively and precisely, where as other things you have a very limited control over. i would rather give up my limited control capabilities to gain a few precise control capabilites if i can make up for what i have given up by changing my driving habits or the setup of my vehicle.

i feel like i did not put that thought to words all too well, i hope that makes sense to someone, its a bit late

 

[storlied]

I agree, no abs is bad when at high speed on the road.
I'm glad you agree about off-road. Like I've said. There's a time for it, and there's a time to kill it.

 

[Rudy602]

jrowe, thanks for your take on the matter but I'm not sure I understand the math regarding stopping distance and reduced speeds. If ABS increases your stopping distance, that means you may hit something or someone that you otherwise wouldn't have. If that were someone, God forbid, you may wish you had that 3% back. I don't think we all need to agree, - something for everyone, right? - and if you feel safer with your ABS then you should have it but since you didn't share any incident where it "saved your bacon" as one member put it, I would imagine that it hasn't. [you could make one up] It's definately possible that it could but I'm just not keen on the greater possibility that it could kill me or someone else. Storlied's switch sounds like it should be there from the factory. If we're learning, we're making progress. I think it's good to question things that are forced on us without even the option to turn it off - esp. when the stats show it just may be more dangerous. I for one have seen it firsthand.

 

[JDraper]

I think this thread has reached the end of it's useful life. I will be closing it. However, it will not be deleted so that people will be able to reference it via. search.

Thank You and Goodnight!!

 

[Bill Kemp]

If anyone has ever had to do an avoidance maneuver while on a snow slicked road they wouldnt even question the usefulness of ABS.
Gee; I wonder why insurance companies offer discounts on collision & medical coverage for cars with ABS? Maybe because it works?
Maybe we could start a thread about how seat belts are really dangerous and not needed if you are a good driver.