ABS - Who needs it?

[Rudy602]

Actually less fatalaties is what really saves them money and even though a larger and more recent study has reduced the increase in fatalaties in an ABS equipped vehicle from 28% to 8%, it's still an increase and though other types of crashes may be reduced or not I think the fatalaties are their most serious concern. Stats still don't mean squat to me, I'll decide for myself just like everyone else. They're just the starting point. It's not real surprising that the people who make and profit from it [ABS] give it more glowing endorsements than the independent agencies that don't.

 

[Mbrooks420]

I doubt the increase in deaths is DUE to the antilock brakes. I assume the deaths are from crappier, more distracted drivers. In the time of non ABS vehicles there were no cell phones, playing with GPS, flashing digital signage, and texting.

 

[Rudy602]

They attributed to the increases to several possibilities [if you read the link] but none were those you mentioned. What about the increased distance to stop - maybe that figured in? I also saw where Al Unser Jr. gave ABS the thumbs down, - I know, so what? - maybe he just didn't get them to sponsor him, who knows? I'm still not saying it has no future, - you'd think they could make them drive by themselves by now. Where's that jetpack they promised me.

They weren't comparing them to the time before ABS was invented - They compared them from the same years - just whether or not they had ABS when they crashed.

 

[Naasau]

Ding, Dong, the B*tch is dead.

Info:
Some info I ran across in post # 169 talks about how to remove the pump from the 1st gen's permanently. So to anyone who really hates that thing, instead of playing with the ABS wires for a switch, just make it go away, never to return.

Stipulation:
I under no means suggest this for anyone who feels incapable of handling an after-market rig without ABS, even the crappy outdated tech found in the 1st gens, and I and the original poster take no responsibility for any idiocy encountered before, during, and after the removal of said system. :roll:

Thread:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227946&page=9

 

[storlied]

Uhm, We're working with a 2nd gen right now with a 2nd gen ABS system... the sensor/wire is the way for us without a buncha bs.

 

[rhauf]

ABS is good for people who don't know how to drive, and panic locking up their brakes.. and/or attempt to steer while their brakes are locked up.

personally i hate ABS. it reduces you're ability to control a slide, it's HORRIBLE in dirt/sand/mud and other offroad places, and its a pain in the ass to service (even just bleeding the brakes is a chore). i disabled the ABS on my explorer.

 

[storlied]

Once again. You have a 1st gen, the 2nd gen's have an improved system. Which yes, can suck horribly off-road like you said.. but it has saved me some damage on the road for sure. And yess, sucks to bleed them also.

Being able to steer while braking is very important, I don't know what kind of road hazards you have but.. I would definitely like to steer while hard braking here. Plenty of black ice and plenty of big stupid animals.

 

[Rudy602]

You can steer while braking without ABS, you just can't lock them up. Most people panic in a tight spot and jump on the brakes - that's not driving, that's reacting. I'm not convinced that ABS can even help those people - the stats say they often steer off the road, roll over, and die instead of hitting whatever they were trying to avoid. [Isn't that called "natural selection"?] I've noticed that shifting into neutral with an auto trans. is like stepping on the clutch in a standard trans. - it can reduce stopping distance as well as the amount of force needed to be applied to the brake pedal. Obviously it's not appropriate for every situation but it can come in handy if you're thinking about what you're doing and not just "reacting" - like storlied said - "sometimes gas is more your friend than brakes" in some situations and sometimes taking the drive power away from the wheels is enough to help stop or steer you safely. I don't recommend it for novice drivers but if you're comfortable with it, give it a try sometime, esp. on snow and ice it can make all the difference. Even the wife can do it cause she has a floor shifter with the reverse locked out but those Ex's with the column shift only have a "detant" so you might not want your teenager looking for neutral and finding reverse.

 

[storlied]

Omg... I'd lose it if someone hit the reverse trying to hit N in my truck.. that would be horrible. Does it have a lock, is that what you meant by detant? I shift into N a lot but have never hit the R or even let the stick get too close, I click it in always.. I use it during braking sometimes, specially when the brakes are slippery for whatever reason, rain, worn brake pads, ect.. I use it to rev to downshift, with my shift kit this is very smooth... and I haven't quite gotten the blipping the gas with a downshift... almost but it's not as smooth as I'd like it... need to work on my timing and how much throttle... Anyways.. engine braking is good also depending on your situation. Most people don't even know what that is. =\

And who just drives off the road? lol.. it's one thing to get to the edge to Avoid.. but who just steers off the road? lmao.. oh man..

Had another moose today, had to head to the side while braking. Not FULL brakes but gradual controlled braking with my maneuver. The biggest thing everything all comes down to really IMO is REMAIN CALM, don't assume you're gonna F up or you will. Control what you have to until you don't/can't anymore. Seriously. Common sense. Look where the moose is going, how fast it's going.. it's reaction, other traffic, road conditions... ect... these things should be going through your mind through an emergency, not panic. No screaming either! lol.

An example of gas is better than brakes is being at an intersection, slight short term traffic jam... but you're already stopped. In the middle of the intersection to an extent. Semi coming through, sliding, honking. What do you do? Smash the car ahead of you? Have a rear end accident backing up? Try n get as close forward or backward? Try and pull to the side out of your lane? All possibilities but what happens if there's just not enough room? And things are going fast and there's too much sliding cross traffic everywhere? I put myself sideways with the AWD and the gas while staying in the same general area. Worked Perfectly, and yes I will admit. Scared the crap outta me! But there's only so many possibilities, if I just went backward or forward, I will would have been hit, unless I rammed someone. It was a bad situation but so intense.

One of the biggest parts of driving is paying attention to your surroundings, EVERY detail you can think of. Not just is there a car ahead of me? No? *continues watching movie on the stereo* =P Gotta be prepared with possibilities and how to deal with all of em.

 

[waskly]

if you dont like abs buy a ssc.

abs will outbreak any person behind the wheel.
the electrical reaction of an abs unit no human will beat. sorry your reflexes are slower then that of a machine.

sure you can pump your brakes while you pump your brakes abs did the same thing 1000x more then you.

also one thing more, abs can also just pump the one wheel that is losing control / locking up vs all 4 with foot action. which means better vehicle control. a.k.a no side slides, etc, you have a straight braking path.

you can also throw the gear shifter into 1 and let the trans down shift for engine braking......

 

[storlied]

Uh, all of that has already been said.

 

[waskly]

Uh, all of that has already been said.

i read page 1 and this page, i sort of skipped the bulk

also figured it was said already but might as well say it again.

 

[Rudy602]

Downshifting into 1 should be a last resort type move if it's at all slippery and can even cause wheel lock up on dry pavement if you're going too fast for that gear. It can definately help in some circumstances, - you have to keep your options open.

 

[storlied]

Woah! I don't downshift into one unless I can do it smoothly, and that's at like... 10mph to 15 maybe? Gotta get the rev just right for that one. Downshifting into 2nd is a lot easier.

 

[jrowe6]

i'll trade my abs for a jet pack, but since that is not an option....i think i'll keep my abs. 99.99% pros, 0.01% cons.

 

[storlied]

That 0.01% is what this thread is about, and how to deal with it. The ABS system we have is far from the best and it does engage at times when Not appropriate. Hell, for the past 2 months I've had mine turned off since it engaged on dry pavement, but since cleaning the sensors and adding my lift/wheels I've turned it back on with no problems yet.

There's times for it, and sometimes times for it to go away. In the summer it really doesn't need to be active, even in rain.. wet roads are manageable... icy roads are another story.

It's a general safety feature I like having active in the background, but when I see conditions it'll kill me in then I simply turn it off.

 

[Rudy602]

I'm not just being contrary, every regulatory agency involved came to the conclusion that cars with ABS had a higher fatality rate so 99.99% pro's seems a little high - more like a coin toss at best. I've seen what the ABS is all about and I know why the fatality rate is higher. I'm real lucky not to be one of those stats. Even the people who make it say it takes longer to stop with ABS. I know I'm either preaching to the choir or talking to myself but I think that chances are, if you're in love with ABS - you probably live where it doesn't snow very often and/or have never had it engage in an emergency. I'd love my ABS if it never kicked in, - trouble is, by the time you figure out the real deal with ABS, you're likely to be one of those statistics.

 

[waskly]

I'm not just being contrary, every regulatory agency involved came to the conclusion that cars with ABS had a higher fatality rate so 99.99% pro's seems a little high - more like a coin toss at best. I've seen what the ABS is all about and I know why the fatality rate is higher. I'm real lucky not to be one of those stats. Even the people who make it say it takes longer to stop with ABS. I know I'm either preaching to the choir or talking to myself but I think that chances are, if you're in love with ABS - you probably live where it doesn't snow very often and/or have never had it engage in an emergency. I'd love my ABS if it never kicked in, - trouble is, by the time you figure out the real deal with ABS, you're likely to be one of those statistics.

rtfm.

Using ABS
When hard braking is required, apply continuous force on the brake
pedal; do not pump the brake pedal since this will reduce the
effectiveness of the ABS and will increase your vehicle’s stopping
distance. The ABS will be activated immediately, allowing you to retain
steering control during hard braking and on slippery surfaces. However,
the ABS does not decrease stopping distance.

thats out of an owners guild. 2009 explorer i think.

but the problem is most people even myself when we took our driving lessons and our first car we were taught to pump the brakes. this is hard to get used to something else doing it for us.

 

[storlied]

I was taught to pump brakes also, but I know when not to if ABS is kicked in.. if you can pump them allowing the wheels to catch the same speed you can for a moment use your brakes without ABS but it'll quickly engage again once you lose traction.

As for not decreasing stopping distance. I call BS on the manual. Where do you live? How are your winters? Take it from someone who lives in a state where the ABS is used a lot on my truck and every other person's 90+ newer vehicle constantly.

Two or three times I've been messing around with ABS turned on in the winter in a parking lot or something and I get outta my skid a lil too much and head toward a pole or car and ABS kicks in... each time it has stopped me inches away from the object. I honestly do believe if I had a full lockup in those specific situations I would have hit said obstacles. It has it's uses at times.

Look, add the switch. Best of both worlds. If you EVER off-road you Should know ABS is a big no no. Plus it takes some skill and fun outta driving anyways.

What's the real issues people are trying to fight in this thread? Lets just address them directly.

 

[jrowe6]

i dont really understand the argument for no abs. my abs works how it is supposed to, and i know how to use it properly and i know exactly how it behaves. in no situation i have ever been in would i ever prefer a 4 wheel lockup to having control and stability. majority of the time your abs should not be doing anything. how many people are seriously slamming the brakes so hard the tires are locking up? the only time mine kicks on is when conditions are poor, and i use it to my advantage in such situations, i know i can press the pedal as hard as i want and not lock the tires up, which means i can count on a specific amount of controlled braking. this allows me to concentrate on maneuvers and reading the road while at the same time getting good consistent braking that is uniform and precise.

abs or not, at any given moment you have a specific amount of traction. you will make a far more substantial difference in the handling and braking characteristics of your vehicle by running the proper tires at the proper psi than trying to manually control when your tires might lock up. as for stoping distance, if you dont have enough you are tailgating, or maybe you should slow down....

as for the guy who said you dont think abs will help the people who react by mashing the brakes. do you think it would be better for those people to lock up all 4 tires and start spinning in circles on the highway every time they flip out about someone doing something stupid ahead of them?

someone explain to me where no abs is beneficial, i for sure do not see the light