Another head gasket thread

[natenkiki2004]

Bear in mind, I'm not an expert (I bet I know less than you) but this is just my way of looking at it, to toss ideas back & fourth:

These lifters are hydraulic, they work under oil pressure and automatically adjust. When the engine's off, I'd imagine there would be a significant gap between the rocker arm and valve stem, measurable with a feeler gauge. With that theory, you should be able to find some kind of clearance at some point of the stroke on the intake of #3 I would imagine.

Also, I hate to say it but I think missing that cup could be your whole problem. I don't know how, since you're taking material AWAY from the valvetrain. If anything, it should prevent the valve from being opened. Anyway, it's what holds the pushrod:

Without it, the pushrod might just fall off the lifter... I would think. Something had to have happened for you to lose the cup.

 

[MindBender0001]

The cup was missing before I pulled the LIM. I'm gonna pull the LIM off and see what I see. It would have to come off anyways should I pull the heads. As for the gap from the lifter while engine is off...my test (only from experience) is while one valve is held open you should be able to twist the pushrod on the closed valve with smooth tension in pushrod. The first time I dropped that pushrod in and put on the rockers, it looked like it was 1/2" too low, but it felt right, but it wasn't. Fiddled with it till it fit right all around.

Back to the cup missing being the whole problem...this engine ran perfect before this job...and the cup was missing beore this job.

I do too love tossing ideas around. Saves a lot of needless work and $$$ spent.

 

[MindBender0001]

Pulled LIM. Intake pushrod on #3 was in fact sitting on top of the side of the lifter. New problem....the first time I fired it up (after replacing the heads), with the pushrod NOT on top of the lifter, as soon as oil pressure hit that lifter, it blew the insides out. Found the cup the pushrod sits in sitting between the lifter's for #3 .

I did turn it over without the rocker assy on the pass head and #3 actually made pressure. Granted only ~35#, but more than it has yet. I know...the valves weren't opening to get any real numbers, but at least it tells me that cyl CAN make pressure.

Now that the heads HAVE to come off, I'm gonna get the valves ground, even though they're working. I'm not messing around any more.

If I would have dropped in the pushrods BEFORE dropping the intake on, this probably never would have happened. Should have just spent the damn $19 for the one lifter. Oh well. Live and learn...the hard way.

 

[MindBender0001]

Valves ground and parts on the way. One intake valve was messed up (grind machine issue, but ironic?). Ordered new lifter, push rod, valve, gaskets, and head bolts. Is there any priming procedure for the lifter or do I just cover with Lucas, drop in and go?

 

[natenkiki2004]

I would just dunk it in some thicker oil for a while, maybe straight up 30 weight so it clings in place while you assemble things. Gear oil could be nice but it might have additives and properties that your engine wouldn't like. Best to stick with motor oil.

Sorry for the lack of replies but it's good to see you're making progress and finding issues.

 

[MindBender0001]

The Lucas oil I got is the one you put in your engine. It's what I've always used as an assembly lube. I thought I remember something somewhere on here about submeging the lifter in oil for like two or three days to get air out before installing. Can't seem to find it now...

 

[natenkiki2004]

I thought I remember something somewhere on here about submeging the lifter in oil for like two or three days to get air out before installing. Can't seem to find it now...

That's what I would do. It probably doesn't do much since you're not pressurizing it but it can't hurt any.

 

[natenkiki2004]

MindBender, regarding your lifter with the broken cup on it, I think it's ok. Today my motor came out and the valve covers came off. Upon inspecting things closely, on one of my lifters, the cup was gone. 2 others had broken off and were sitting as "rings" around the pushrod. The engine runs great, just drains oil at 1.5 quarts every 400 miles and a cold tick that goes away when warm. No power issues, misses or anything like that.

From the research I did, they are called phenolic cups and are purely there to aid installation of pushrods and ensure that nothing moves when assembly happens. If you can imagine, the motor assembly line, everything is hand built but they're doing things pretty quickly and manually aligning 12 pushrods can take a fair amount of time.

Just for reference, here's 2 threads I found that confirm this, including a post where someone references a lifter rebuilder that verified the information:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1202639-phenolic-cups-on-lifters.html
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1243712-lifter-plastic-top-off-4-0-a.html

 

[MindBender0001]

I also "figured it'd be ok" and all probably would have been should I have installed the push rods before the intake. Makes sense for them to be there for the assembly-line aspect especially seeing as you're supposed to torque the heads and intake at same time. I found some exploded views of hydraulic lifters (not ours exactly, but they all operate on the same principal) and mine was missing some springs, check balls, etc. All the internals blew out. Parts will be here Monday, but I'm not gonna get to it till this weekend.

Thanks for the links!!! If I may ask, why'd ya have to pull your engine?

 

[natenkiki2004]

If I may ask, why'd ya have to pull your engine?

Severe oil leak, 1.5 quarts every 400 miles, a drip every 5 seconds the engine's running. I got pictures and video of the process I'm going to share but the engine is all buttoned up and ready to re-install tomorrow. The majority of the leak came from the oil pan gasket that had hardened to the point where it was solid plastic but extremely brittle. Also did the timing kit, timing cover, water pump gasket, front & rear crank gaskets and a few other things. Very eye-opening experience.

Back on topic, somewhat, I took the pickup tube off my oil pump and back-flowed it, out came many pieces of the plastic cone. It wasn't enough to obstruct the pickup tube flow but I'd imagine that if all of them broke, it could.

 

[MindBender0001]

It runs!!! Holy crap, she runs!!! Right, even!!! All I can hear is the ever so faint injector ticks. It's such a beautiful thing to hear again!!!

So the guy who ground the valves said that even had I got the pushrod right, it still wouldn't have run right. He said every exhaust valve was blowing by. Throw that in along with my pushrod issue and well, things don't work right.

So, all in all, lesson learned. I do appreciate everyone who helped me in this. I don't think any Ford service tech would have been NEAR as willing to help troubleshoot a 23 year old rig. I honestly hope this thread may end up helping someone else. I'm still working on getting some pics posted...

Now on to tire swap, reworking the front brakes, a thorough cleaning inside and out, and a few good test drives.

Again, thanks everyone.

 

[natenkiki2004]

Sweet! But I am curious, what's your compression now?

 

[shamal]

well that was some mind-bending trip ! Well done, we all learn a bit from every detailed experience.

 

[MindBender0001]

Sweet! But I am curious, what's your compression now?

I'll have to borrow the compression tester again, but I will do...now you've got me curious...

 

[MindBender0001]

We've got probably 1,000 miles on the ex since the head job and yesterday she did something kind weird. As we were pulling into the carport, the engine died. Granted, we were in gear and had the wheel cranked all the way to one side, and just come to a complete stop, but she's never died like that before. Put it into park and fired her right back up. Backed up a bit, straightened the wheels, and pulled her into her spot. Again, just as we came to a complete stop, she dies. Put into park, fired right back up. Went through the gears while on the brakes, but she didn't die. Now the CEL is on. The only 'issue' she's been giving us is a bit of a hard start in the mornings...sometimes. If she don't catch on the first crank or two, I cycle the fuel pump with the key a couple times, and the next crank she fires right up. K. Probably a fuel pump on its way out. Got a spare. That is, until I pulled the codes:

In this order:
116 ECT out of range.
159 MAF is/was out of range.
114 IAT out of range.

157 MAF signal is/was low or grounded.
158 MAF sensor is/was high or short to power.

Haven't reset the codes and the wife just took it on a 20 min drive to pick up a friend. She went out, closed the hood, and left. That wiped the first set of codes, but the 157 and 158 codes were still there. I checked the MAF connector and it WAS slightly out of its socket (its missing the little clip that locks it in). Slid it all the way in. Pulled the paper clip while key was on.
The only thing the wife said it did was the idle jumped as if she hit the pedal, when she didn't, and when she would come to a stop, the idle was lower than normal. She said it seemed like it wanted to die, but didn't. Were fixing to run some errands and that's gonna be a good 4 hours of driving by the time we get back home.

All those sensors, to best of my memory, are all on the same harness...is there a plug/socket somewhere that could be loose that would affect that whole harness?

 

[natenkiki2004]

Going off of memory here, isn't that harness the one that goes to a big connector that bolts to the side/under the alternator? I think everything on the engine goes through that. The injectors, O2, IAT, IAC, ECT, MAF, TPS, CPS... I think.

 

[MindBender0001]

I think you're right. I too remember a connector down there. Thought about disconnecting it a few times over this whole job, but never did. I just find it odd that ALL those sensors would have issues all at the same time. Oh. I also had to put new ring terminals on the two 10ga ground wires at the battery. Originals were only on by a thread. Hhhmmm...the battery that was in it took a crap on us, so I pulled the one from old x. Of course, posts were backwards. Maybe my pulling the battery cables around tweaked that plug? I'm gonna get some warm clothes on and go check a few more things before we head out.

I'm still working on those compression numbers Nate.

 

[natenkiki2004]

I wouldn't think the battery situation would cause those problems unless you're talking about the ring terminals that feed a 2-wire circular plug right below the battery, that's the ground for the ECM. Most all the sensors have their own dedicated wires rather than relying on ground for communication to the computer.

I would say, 2 things to have done when you get the time would be to have the battery load tested and replace the battery cables entirely.

My first thought when you posted was that the MAF connection went bad and the computer tried to compensate with the other sensors. I'm leaning more towards a connection issue though.

Your post is making me tempted to go pull mine, clean it and re-assemble with dielectric grease. Mine wasn't disconnected, just shoved aside when the engine came out. I haven't had any serious issues but the other day, my RPM gauge dropped to 0 a couple times while the engine ran. Then a day or two later, the actual engine RPM fluctuated when I pulled into a parking spot. Didn't die though and no check engine lights.

 

[MindBender0001]

Only thing I found was the MAF connector was almost out. Pushed it in, reset computer, and so far, no codes. Before I scrap the old x, I'm gonna strip a bunch of parts off it. Now I'm adding all the sensor plugs to that list. In the new x, almost every plug's retaining clip is broken off, but the old one's are all still intact.