Biodiesel powered Excursion vs. Prius

[cherrybomb]

NOx is produced by high temps in the cylinder, doesn't really matter what fuel is being burnt, It's all carbon chain based, just different makeup.

Interesting, I've been doing some googling on this a bit today, and that seems to add up. The jury is still out on the effect of biodiesel on NOx emissions, some research shows that it produces slightly more, some research shows slightly less than petroleum diesel. Either way, diesel engines produce more NOx due to the higher compression and combustion temp.

It seems that the 2009 emissions regulations for diesel will mitigate some of this though, as was stated in an earlier post by kert0307, through the use of catalytic converters, urea injection, and exhaust gas recirculation.

Personally, I'm willing to accept the (apparently marginal) loss in efficiency if all emissions are reduced. Diesel engines still tend to make good power, with "above average" efficiency.

Interesting stuff. Might prompt a follow-up blog post.

 

[kert0307]

Random non-trippy thought

What I really want to see is someone make a diesel water hybrid. Think about it like this...around 30% of the fuels equivalent power of any engine, diesel or gas is wasted through the engine cooling system, so the engine doesn't over heat, and retains a boundary layer of air in the cylinder between the heat of the fuel burning, and the piston walls. Basically a cooling system is needed because no materials exist that can withstand the temps/pressures without cooling for a decent amount of time.

What happens if after the power stroke, the engine goes around it's normal cycles, except when it comes to the next power stroke, water is injected in. The water will come into contact with the already heated cylinder, expand into vapor, and create another power stroke with the "leftover heat" in the cylinder. This way the engine is cooled, and powered by the diffusion of the heat at the same time. If there was a decent monitoring system on it, it could tell when the cylinder was cooled enough to start using diesel again. I doubt this would completely eliminate the need for a cooling system, but it would have to at least decrease the amount of heat wasted...

 

[cherrybomb]

What I really want to see is someone make a diesel water hybrid. Think about it like this...around 30% of the fuels equivalent power of any engine, diesel or gas is wasted through the engine cooling system, so the engine doesn't over heat, and retains a boundary layer of air in the cylinder between the heat of the fuel burning, and the piston walls. Basically a cooling system is needed because no materials exist that can withstand the temps/pressures without cooling for a decent amount of time.

What happens if after the power stroke, the engine goes around it's normal cycles, except when it comes to the next power stroke, water is injected in. The water will come into contact with the already heated cylinder, expand into vapor, and create another power stroke with the "leftover heat" in the cylinder. This way the engine is cooled, and powered by the diffusion of the heat at the same time. If there was a decent monitoring system on it, it could tell when the cylinder was cooled enough to start using diesel again. I doubt this would completely eliminate the need for a cooling system, but it would have to at least decrease the amount of heat wasted...

Funny you should mention it..

In some of the research I was doing today, I stumbled across someone making a snide comment about the progression of motor vehicle development, and suggesting that manufacturers are "lazy" to not have thought of some alternative engine solution. He linked a wiki found here. This link shows several alternatives, and when I was looking at it, the "six stroke" engine stood out, which is described as exactly this process! The six stroke engine

I'm sure that manufacturing costs wouldn't be that daunting, though a new ECU which managed injecting water or fuel on alternating cycles might be a challenge. I'm sure that manufacturers aren't interested in teaching users to refuel with water AND diesel/gasoline though.

I wonder how hard it might be to adapt an existing motor for this. There are already kits for water and/or methanol injection to reduce intake temperatures. Hmmmnnn..

 

[IZwack]

Since we're concerned about consumption and pollution:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/7056601.stm

 

[kert0307]

Since we're concerned about consumption and pollution:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/7056601.stm

Whats with the endangered ecosystem in the North Dakota area?

 

[Fredness]

What about the Lithum batteries and their impact? Mined in Chile, Exported to the US or China for processing, sent to Japan to be made in to batteries and then exported to the US? Surely those costs have to add up and be factored in somewhere.

 

[cherrybomb]

What about the Lithum batteries and their impact? Mined in Chile, Exported to the US or China for processing, sent to Japan to be made in to batteries and then exported to the US? Surely those costs have to add up and be factored in somewhere.

There have been all sorts of arguments about the embodied energy costs of a Prius, as well as how much of their materials are hazardous and/or not recyclable.

While there is certainly something to be said for that, I'm hardly qualified to provide the data on that, so I stuck with something a bit more straight forward, and compared apples to apples. I.E. Tailpipe emissions for each vehicle.

There are other less tangible reasons why I'd prefer a biodiesel rig over a prius, but those are more a matter of personal taste than environmental conscience.

 

[dogfriend]

The Prius doesn't use Lithium Ion batteries (yet) it uses NiMH (nickel metal hydride). So do all of the other hybrids (i.e. Honda and Ford Escape Hybrids).

The Li Ion battery technology is not quite safe enough for autos yet (e.g. exploding Dell laptops) but Toyota and others are working on the problems because Li Ion has the best energy density compared to all the others. The Chevy Volt series hybrid will only be feasible with Li Ion.

There is a bunch of misinformation about the environmental impact of the batteries. In particular there is a "Dust to Dust" study which claims that a Hummer is more environmentally conscious than a Prius. Its complete BS and has been refuted by several independent sources.

Toyota has a $200 bounty on Prius batteries to be returned so they can be recycled and there are people out there scarfing up used batteries on Ebay so they can be used in Plug In Hybrid conversions, so I wouldn't be concerned about the old batteries ending up in the landfill.

 

[Fredness]

Go it....

From the InterBlogz: "Most hybrids use a nickel metal hydride system, which requires nickel mining, which is often done in open cast mines with all the attendant pollution that goes along with excavating large holes in the ground. Luckily, nickel metal hydride batteries are non toxic and they can be recycled, but at a cost."

This is more of what I was after, the "unintended consiquences" aspect of "saving the environment". I would love to see an unbiased cradle to grave study. Much like corn based Ethanol, there are kinks that need to be worked out before it is a win-win, but you have to start somewhere, right?

There are other less tangible reasons why I'd prefer a biodiesel rig over a prius, but those are more a matter of personal taste than environmental conscience.

Ditto - that is why we are leaning towards Ethanol for the Focus and the Explorer, once available. Given the choice I would rather drive a bio-diesel F350 dually than a Prius anyday, just to have the chance to verbally disembowel anyone who does the "OMG, do you know what that thing is doing to the envirionment" thing...

 

[CDW6212R]

The Prius doesn't use Lithium Ion batteries (yet) it uses NiMH (nickel metal hydride). So do all of the other hybrids (i.e. Honda and Ford Escape Hybrids).

The Li Ion battery technology is not quite safe enough for autos yet (e.g. exploding Dell laptops) but Toyota and others are working on the problems because Li Ion has the best energy density compared to all the others. The Chevy Volt series hybrid will only be feasible with Li Ion.

There is a bunch of misinformation about the environmental impact of the batteries. In particular there is a "Dust to Dust" study which claims that a Hummer is more environmentally conscious than a Prius. Its complete BS and has been refuted by several independent sources.

Toyota has a $200 bounty on Prius batteries to be returned so they can be recycled and there are people out there scarfing up used batteries on Ebay so they can be used in Plug In Hybrid conversions, so I wouldn't be concerned about the old batteries ending up in the landfill.

That study is what I referred to long ago, and it is accurate in what it measures. The study calculated what the total cost for the vehicles would be over a given time. The Prius batteries are bad for the environment not by their disposal, but in the manufacturing. A huge area far around the Canadian facility where the batteries are made is unfit for wildlife. The pollution from that plant has affected about 30miles in area up there, that isn't even part of the study's conclusions. A major part of the cost of those cars is the expensive batteries, and their travel around the Earth to make them.

The Prius will need new batteries before the Hummer loses its usefulness. The lifespan of those batteries is so far short enough that the replacement cost must be considered in the total cost of the vehicle. Thus even though the Hummer costs more for gas and initial price, the Prius will cost more because of the short lifespan of the car.

 

[dogfriend]

That study is what I referred to long ago, and it is accurate in what it measures. The study calculated what the total cost for the vehicles would be over a given time. The Prius batteries are bad for the environment not by their disposal, but in the manufacturing. A huge area far around the Canadian facility where the batteries are made is unfit for wildlife. The pollution from that plant has affected about 30miles in area up there, that isn't even part of the study's conclusions. A major part of the cost of those cars is the expensive batteries, and their travel around the Earth to make them.

The Prius will need new batteries before the Hummer loses its usefulness. The lifespan of those batteries is so far short enough that the replacement cost must be considered in the total cost of the vehicle. Thus even though the Hummer costs more for gas and initial price, the Prius will cost more because of the short lifespan of the car.

The study that you are referring to is wrong and has been refuted by several independent sources. I posted links to some of them in a previous post in this thread.

No one actually knows what the lifetime of the Prius is, but 109k (the figure used in the CNW paper) is clearly too low, there are many cars in taxi service that are now over 200k and the highest mileage car has over 320k. The HV battery is warranted for 10 years, 150k miles in Calif (where I live) and other states which use Calif emissions standards. Toyota has indicated that they expect the life of the battery to be at least 180k.

Re: Battery pollution

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071104135221AAysDC3

http://members.nickelinstitute.org/index.cfm/ci_id/12764.htm

I would add: what about the environmental impact of (discarded) cell phone batteries, power tool batteries, laptop batteries, etc.?

I don't really care whether you like or dislike the Prius, but you shouldn't use a completely bogus study as the reason to hate on it.

 

[CDW6212R]

It is not about battery disposal, the problem is the pollution that is created initially, not after the car dies. I don't "...hate on it" because of any study, I do like the study, I think that it is humorous to see how much an "environmentally friendly car" is not very good for the environment.

I hate the Prius because it is a Toyota, I hate all Asian vehicles. I like all American vehicles, and I am neutral about European vehicles etc. I support my country by choosing to not buy foreign vehicles. All Asian manufacturers are interested in their country, I do not fault them for that. They have no interest in helping us, they can do without my money. All Toyota's are Japanese vehicles, 100% of all of the profit goes to Japan. Regards,

 

[dogfriend]

The quick version of what I understand about the Ni mining (covered in the links above):

The particular plant (Sudbury)was an environmental disaster about 30 years ago (long before NiMH batteries were even invented).

The area has since been cleaned up by the mining company.

Toyota uses less than 1% of the Ni produced at that plant for manufacturing NiMH batteries for hybrids.

Toyota has a recycling program in place for the used batteries and they pay a $200 bounty for the returned ones.

Re: Hating Toyota in general

I can sympathize somewhat with this. Before buying the Prius, I did look at several other small cars (my goal was a 4 door hatchback that would get 30mpg +) About the only cars that I flat out wouldn't consider was GM, I have a prejudice against GM cars. I also have a prejudice against the Korean brands.

I couldn't fit (headroom) in any of the small Chrysler cars. I did fit into the Ford Focus, but my GF did not like the car.

The small cars that I did fit into included: the Honda Fit, the Nissan Versa, the Toyota Matrix and the Toyota Prius. I decided to buy the Prius because I like the hybrid technology.

Ford Escape Hybrid uses similar technology to the Prius, but I wasn't looking for another SUV. I have heard that Ford expects to introduce a hybrid version of the Fusion. I hope they do that. GM is working on the Volt, but I would be hesitant to purchase anything that complicated from GM for quality reasons.

I guess my point is that I will consider US manufacturers when they have a product I want, but they did not when I was ready to buy my car.

 

[CDW6212R]

"I guess my point is that I will consider US manufacturers when they have a product I want, but they did not when I was ready to buy my car."

Well I understand that. But I will never buy a new vehicle from an Asian manufacturer, simply because I will never look at one, ever. They do not exist to me, until the other hundreds of vehicle models are no longer made by the US or Europe, I have plenty to choose from.

If you cannot find a suitable vehicle made by an American company, or non Asian, you did not look hard enough, or the problem was not the vehicles. There are hundreds to choose from, when you choose to look at Asian vehicles, you immediately eliminated countless American products. You stopped looking, it's as simple as that. Regards,

 

[dkchrist]

everyone talks about taxi service for the batteries. This is not the best show of longevity because these vehicles run non-stop and only cool down on their off shift then get going all day again. Look a the Yellow taxis many of these have a lifespan of 500k or more with reports of many have a million miles at retirement.

Another thing that should be looked into is pneumatic valves. vvt is something that is relatively new but has show amazing potential in foreign vehicles but also combine this with compression ignition as mentioned earlier(however both are very costly)

 

[dogfriend]

everyone talks about taxi service for the batteries. This is not the best show of longevity because these vehicles run non-stop and only cool down on their off shift then get going all day again. Look a the Yellow taxis many of these have a lifespan of 500k or more with reports of many have a million miles at retirement.

What is the best test for longevity? I would argue that taxi service is very similar to accelerated lifetime testing because "these vehicles run non-stop". Certainly its more severe service than the average owner would subject their car to.

The reason "everyone" talks about this in regard to hybrids is that it is evidence that the battery life is longer than a lot of people like to speculate that it is.

Another thing that should be looked into is pneumatic valves. vvt is something that is relatively new but has show amazing potential in foreign vehicles but also combine this with compression ignition as mentioned earlier(however both are very costly)

VVT (variable valve timing) is a proven technology at this point, used heavily by Honda, Toyota and Nissan. The US manufacturers seem to be behind, only offering it on a few vehicles. The Prius uses VVT to operate as an Atkinson cycle engine to get better fuel economy.