Charging issue need help ASAP

[budwich]

Whelp, O'Reilys and Advanced tested it and its bad. Went to
the "zone" and had a bad time, they will refund the part price , but my core is gone and they can't give me core money back. (WTF) I had a core when this all started. So, I'm borrowing a car at lunch and going to see the store
manager to get this straight. That being said, I was in a sour mood so
I just took a night off and stayed warm at home. I actually get off early
on Saturday, so I will have sun light to go over the wires again.
BTW:Budwich, what do you mean about grounding during the test
finding the problem? Please elaborate. I can't even see the forest
for all the trees anymore.

No problem with your test as I expect exactly that in way, you did follow the "first" instructions which was to test to a KNOWN ground. However, what the followup test should have been was to find out if indeed there is a KNOWN ground at the alternator. Your testing just shows "good voltages" with respect to KNOWN grounds where you used those points. However, it is quite possible that you have lost your ground on your block or elsewhere since the alternator typically gets its ground thru bolting... that can lose contact with a dirty / oily / rusted bolt mating surface but unlikely. Anyways, of course, you know how to test for grounds... hint: its not using a voltage reading...

PS. IF you don't want to take your dash apart to get at the bulb, just turn your key to on and put a ground on the wire (which ever one I previously indicated) and see if your light comes on.

 

[koda2000]

Whelp, O'Reilys and Advanced tested it and its bad. Went to
the "zone" and had a bad time, they will refund the part price , but my core is gone and they can't give me core money back. (WTF) I had a core when this all started. So, I'm borrowing a car at lunch and going to see the store
manager to get this straight. That being said, I was in a sour mood so
I just took a night off and stayed warm at home. I actually get off early
on Saturday, so I will have sun light to go over the wires again.
BTW:Budwich, what do you mean about grounding during the test
finding the problem? Please elaborate. I can't even see the forest
for all the trees anymore.

I've worked at AutoZone and have encountered the issue of someone needing their core back after it's been returned. As returning the old part is impossible once it's gone, all the store would be able to do was to return the value of the core (especially when it's not your fault). That's what our district manager told us to do the first time this issue came up in my store. AutoZone will do pretty much whatever you demand if you make enough noise. If the store manager won't return your money, call the district manager, regional manager or corporate, in that order. And tell corporate the trouble that store caused you, because I saw people get gift cards issued, or a free oil change for their trouble.

I don't understand how AZ tested your alternators and said they were good when they weren't. Those test machines are pretty much idiot proof (they have to be with the caliber of employees at most discount auto parts stores). I can see someone testing a good alt and having it test bad if they forget to hook up one of the test leads or ground, but not the other way around. Well, I sure hope this solves your problem. It's been a long haul.

 

[my white eddie]

O.K., let me make sure on this. If I pull the plug from the alt and ground
the batt light wire to say, the battery ground, it should light?
Or do I need to bare a spot on that wire to ground it with the plug still
on the alt?
I am thinking the 1st scenario, as the light appears to receive POWER from
a seperate source. But what do I know anymore!!!

 

[budwich]

yep...don't start your truck, just turn the key on, pull the wire/connector find known ground, touch a jumper to that ground and the pin in the wire connector that is going to the light... shazzam, the light should go on if it is there and not burnt.

 

[my white eddie]

Well, what do you know! Grounded green w/ red stripe to a known
ground and no light. Bulb is present and working.
I did check fuse #15 interior and it is good and showed power on
both sides. So it sounds like that wire has lost
contact somewhere. So I will re-trace it tonight, and hopefully drive
to work tomorrow!

 

[budwich]

Now I am confused here. This is a pretty simple circuit so something isn't right. How do you know your bulb is good? Maybe I am lacking on what this circuit is doing... :-( can you also tell me what ground you used? sorry for being so "picky".

 

[koda2000]

did i miss a post? last i read you took the AZ alt and had it tested at O'Reilly's and Advance and it tested bad. then you were having a hard time getting AZ to refund your core money... now we're back to trying to figure out why no BATT light.

did you get another alternator, install it and are now charging?

BTW. if you're unsure about the ground at the alternator, hook up a battery jumper cable from the negative battery post straight to the alternator housing to see of that makes any difference.

 

[my white eddie]

Don't apologize for pickiness, can't solve the mystery without ALL
the clues. Now I ASSumed you were leving a crumb trail for me to
find a broken ground, which is what I ASSumed I did. But the test
went like this: pulled plug from Alt. pushed wire into the connecter
(other end has alligator clip) clipped to neg. batt. cable. Turned key
to on position and no batt. light at all. pulled bulb from air bag light(which works) and switched with batt light, still no batt light, but air bag light still works.

 

[budwich]

"air bag still works"... good cause you swapped bulbs. OK.... yes I was hoping you would find a grounding issue along the way.... PLUS some one (koda2000 seems to have forgotten) had brought up that a "non-working light" might cause an issue with the charging system... it is a valid point... maybe as I don't know enough about the internals and the circuits that I have seen don't provide enough detail to rule that out... so that is the other part of the test... to try get the light working.... it may help later.

As Koda2000, points out you can try "manually" grounding the chassis of the alternator to the battery negative and run from there checking you voltages output there after with the vehicle runnning and everything connected up. I guess one question that I have now, is have you ever seen the battery light light during your ownership????

 

[my white eddie]

Did finally get another alt. not installed yet, but the light thing
makes me wonder if my vehicle is the reason behind all these
alts going bad. Half scared to even put it in if there is still
a wiring question at all. Just making sure all bases are covered
as they are getting tired of seeing me at the parts stores.

 

[my white eddie]

I do not believe I have ever seen the batt. light work, but can't
testify to that. I do know that it did not come on when the problem
first occured. As far as confused about the circuit, ME TOO!
it looks simple as all get out on paper, but just doesn't seem that
simple to diagnose.

 

[koda2000]

yeah, i'd really like to see that BATT light working. so we know the BATT bulb is good and we can create a good ground at the alt and as far as we can tell, the BATT bulb should be getting power with the key ON (can you verify that somehow?). All that leaves is the BATT light ground wire going to the alternator.

 

[budwich]

I guess my question about the light working was that if the light never worked during your ownership (which has been how long?) that wouldn't be an issue now then in terms of working / charging since it must have charged at some time... right? I am concerned though as the comment (working light -> working alternator) might be the problem.... so you need to get your meter out again and check for voltage coming into the bulb with your key on.

 

[my white eddie]

I did check the fuse (#15 interior) that feeds the batt light and
it was good, showed power in and out, but I will try the actual
contact for the bulb on the printed circuit board and see if the
power goes that far. I have only had this since mid December,
so as far as that goes I am still figuring out what does and doesn't
work, and where stuff even is.

 

[koda2000]

I guess my question about the light working was that if the light never worked during your ownership (which has been how long?) that wouldn't be an issue now then in terms of working / charging since it must have charged at some time... right? I am concerned though as the comment (working light -> working alternator) might be the problem.... so you need to get your meter out again and check for voltage coming into the bulb with your key on.

for what it's worth, i believe it's actually a function of the voltage regulator to turn the BATT light on/off based on grounding the BATT light wire. it used to be easier to check that kind of stuff when you could take the top of the regulator and look at it.

 

[RadioDoc]

Did finally get another alt. not installed yet, but the light thing
makes me wonder if my vehicle is the reason behind all these
alts going bad. Half scared to even put it in if there is still
a wiring question at all. Just making sure all bases are covered
as they are getting tired of seeing me at the parts stores.

YES !!! YES !!! YES !!! You are KILLING these alternators.

Sorry I haven't been on the forum since Christmas, but FIRST THINGS FIRST.

IF I understand correctly......... Your first clue that something is bad is the heavy sparking when you connect the battery.

There should be NO heavy sparking.

Without a multi-meter, its going to be hard ( but not too difficult ) to determine what the current draw ( AMPS ) is being drained out of the battery.

Jumper clips and an old headlight will get you started.


One jumper clip end to the battery negative terminal and connect the other end to one side of the headlight.

The second jumper clip comes off the second terminal of the headlight and the other end goes to ground or the ground wire that was disconnected from the battery.

You now have a 55 watt load between the battery negative and car ground.

If there is a DEAD-SHORT on the battery positive side wiring to ground, the headlight will limit the current to around 4 to 5 amps maximum , so now you can start trouble shooting the wiring harness.


If the headlight comes on between half and full brightness when you hook up the positive terminal to the battery , you have found the cause of your woes.


Do this check before you hook up another alternator.

If you are discharging the battery as fast as you say, I suspect the headlight will be pretty bright.

If you have a volt meter, read the voltage across the headlight, and let us know what you find.

 

[budwich]

I don't think the "heavy spark" is unusual depending on what "heavy" real is unless you know / measure the actual amperage. Further unless things have changed (and they could have), the OP indicated after recharging / re-connecting the battery, he can leave the truck over night and can start it without a problem... BUT that it basically dies electrically very quickly there after once it is running. Doesn't sound like a dead short at connection time... more of "run time problem".... but anything is possible on an "internet consult".

 

[OptimaJim]

koda2000, I appreciate your feedback, as I too am always interested in learning something new. As I mentioned previously, I'm not an alternator guy, which is why I lean heavily on my friends in the industry who are. They have indicated slipping belts are not an issue unique to v-belts at all and the spring tensioners from early-1990s GM engines can be particularly problematic. Either way, it's easy enough to check and eliminate from the list of possible issues, especially if a new alternator is being installed anyway.

I realize no one said anything about amp hours or CCA, which is why I felt compelled to do so. Parasitic draws (ideally) are measured in milliamps, not volts, as was previously-mentioned in this thread. Likewise, referencing a battery's rating for cranking amps or cold cranking amps (650) when discussing a 2-amp charge rate could suggest to some that a 2-amp charge rate would be looking to replenish 650 amps, which isn't the case either. As you indicated, it could take a few days for a 2-amp charger to recharge a deeply-discharged battery, but it will get it done, just as a garden hose will eventually fill a swimming pool, even though a fire hose can do it much faster.

Volts are every bit as important as amps when testing a battery and one of the biggest challenges we face as a manufacturer. Like my friends in the alternator business who get many “bad” alternators returned under warranty that have nothing wrong with them, we get many “bad” batteries returned, because the people who load-tested the batteries and determined they were bad did not first attempt to fully-recharge the battery before testing. Sometimes this step is skipped because customers are too impatient to wait around for their deeply-discharged battery to get recharged. In other cases, the person performing the test didn't know that a discharged battery will always fail a load test, even if it will pass once it is fully-charged.

Hopefully, this all gets sorted out soon, as it seems as if knowledgeable folks are offering good advice.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries

 

[RadioDoc]

Didn't make it home. Ran 2 batteries down in less than 10 minutes!
seems as though I have an 11 V draw even with the key off (in my pocket)
hooked a test light between the positive post and positive terminal, and boy
did she glow!

 

[RadioDoc]

When I connect the
pos. cable to the battery it sparks alot

Put the headlight - clip leads between the negative battery terminal and ground and read the voltage of :

( 1 ) the battery

( 2 ) the voltage across the headlight


With those two readings, we can get a close estimate of how many AMPS
are being drawn when you hook up the positive cable to the battery.