Crates and Strokers...What engine upgrade should I do...

[rocket 5979]

I dont think I would go for those rhoaods lifters. Sounds like a flash in the pan to me. On top of the fact that their supposed variable lifting is controlled by a viscuous fluid? Sorry but it reminds me of a type of mods like that weedwhacker supercharger. Just cause it is in Jegs doesnt mean it does crap to increase or help your engines performance. Real variable valve timing is done through solenoids and variable cam lobes and is controlled electronically for a reason. Cam timing needs to be precise. Down to 1/50th of a second or so. Otherwise your working against yourself. Scenario. Those rhoades lifters dont function properly. Instead of slowing things down they lock it up! Boom! By by head gasket or pushrod. Sorry but I want something a little more controlled than that.

 

[Billy177]

actually i used on the pontiac 455 that i just built for a 71gto and they work suprisingly well. cam timing also has nothing to do with time such as 1/50th of a second it has to do with degrees of crankshaft rotation.
These don't claim to change valve timing the cam does that all they change is the lift. they have no way of damaging your enging because if they were to fail they would open the valves less or of somehow they stayed pumped up they would just open them the same as a regular lifter. the design of these is much more simple and reliable than vtech. the faster the lifter has to open the valves the less oil it can let of it and the more it opens the valve. I also do know how a head gasket even factors in here say the lifterd didn't even open the valves no more cylinder pressure would be created than a compression stroke.

 

[rocket 5979]

cam timing also has nothing to do with time such as 1/50th of a second it has to do with degrees of crankshaft rotation.

Hand in hand, same thing. that is why it is called timing and not degreeing, though it is the same thing in most peoples references. Because we are dealing with time here. Timing between the opening of the intake valve, the intake stroke of the piston just shortly after, and the opening of the exhaust valve right before the piston hits bdc followed by the exhaust stroke. This all has to be timed just right to make power. Especially in race applications! That is why certain cams,(race cams) have a significantly longer DURATION that usually the int. / ex. lobes overlap each other to help flow the air for one another better. Like getting a running start in a sense. duration is the time, measured in degrees in which the cam lobe will keep the int/ex. valve open. Lets look at this in a mathematic aspect shall we? Got an engine running at say 3000 rpms. Typical driving rpm. You got 8 cylinders. We will use the 5.0 OHV so 2 valve per cylinder. And the engine is a 4 stroke meaning that within every 2 strokes(1 rotation) there is one valve actuation occuring in each cylinder. 3000 rpms x 8 cylinders = 24,000 valve actuations a minute. 24,000 / 60 = 400 valve actuations every second. 400 / 8 = 50 valve actuations / second on every cylinder. Hence my comment on 1/50th second. With something like vtech and similar stuff all it does is activate a solenoid piston to lock another rocker arm in place and it takes over where the others leave off. In ferraris the valve timing is done a different and I think better way. The cam lobes are a little bit wider or longer when looking at the cam from the side. Each lobe has two separate lifts and durations on them. If you would look at it they different profiles in the same lobe just kind of blend together. So now all that has to be done is move the whole camshaft towards the back about a 1/2" or so and youve got essentially a completely different camshaft BUT still with very accurate timing. I just dont see this happening with those lifters alone. Otherwise why would alot of these very high tech people like Ferrari and Ford take all these millions of dollars to R&D something that can be sorted out with a $100 set of rhoades magical lifters! I know alot of new engine tech is developed on the front lines of racing, but still, this is one of those that whilst it may sound like a good idea while talking about it, would a person really want to spend the money to put a set of these in only to see crap if anything from gains even if it is dealing with strictly the lift and nothing more. Still it is 1/3 the equation that changes valve timing, the other two being duration and lobe separation. VVT is a very complex thing, that is why it has only come about lately in engine technology in production cars. It has to be done right and precisely if it will be of any advantage.

Sorry for the long post guys.

 

[Big Duke]

Its cool. And like I said, thanks for the info.

-Duke

 

[Billy177]

maby you misunderstood me the lifters only effect the valve lift not timing. they are not claiming to give you another cam profile at higher rpms. and teh reason they do not come stock in certain cars, for one the pushrod style engine while it is still is effective is outdated and second of all they are noisy. most car manufactuctues only advertise peak hp/tq 90% of people don't care about their torque down low and the general public would rather have a quiet engine rather than a one that clicks at low rps's even though it makes more power

 

[Billy177]

http://forums.performanceyears.com/...66062811&m=1116092811&r=4216092811#4216092811

there is one thread that discusses them there are many more just like it. weather you use them or not i don't really care. but it is an emissions friendly product that really does work the only prolblem is the noise.

i also think a e303 cam with some 1.7 rockers would be a good choice for a 347. you don't want too big a cam in a heavy car like an explorer with the stock stall converter and high gearing. if you go too big it will be a dog off the line and not make much power until 4500+

 

[RiverRat]

Ok, thanks for answering my questions. This is a real learning experinece. Speed costs...how fast do you want your Ex to go? HaHa.

Anyway, after reading through serious explorations, the corral and some other sites I'm thinking about doing this...

Pull out the 302, take it apart, take it to a machine shop and have it bored .030" over and grind valves and seats

For new parts I'd need the 347 rotating assy (crank, pistons, rods, etc)
New cam
New valve springs
New pushrods and rockers

I do all the install work to save $$$

What about balancing/blueprinting?
Will any machine shop be ok?
What about valve guides?
Seeing this thing has to pass smog emissions I'm still thinking a E cam??
For parts would summit or jegs be good?
Am I missing anything else?

I'll worry about tune, fuelpump, injectors, etc later.
I'm building this engine for more towing power and better acceleration. It must be reliable and want to run 87 octane gas (trips to mexico)

 

[CDW6212R]

Rob, the Rhoads lifters simply bleed oil faster at lower RPM, resulting in less lift and duration at lower RPM's. I think that they have an RPM limitation low for racing use, but plenty high for Explorers.

His biggest problem will be emissions. Definately get a dual pattern cam. Ford doesn't make any for the roller engines. More compression can make a lot of extra power. The cam choice becomes very critical, for emissions and timing(driveability and power).

The Explorer intake is very good, but for a stroker it could use porting, or extrude honing. Definately port the heads, or change to aluminum.

TransGo makes the best shift kit if you care about not WOT use. The below WOT trans behavior is vastly superior than any other kit out there. The one I had in my LSC would downshift at part throttle perfectly on onramps. Where stock would remain in fourth gear(AOD), the Transgo kit downshifted to second just before I hit the gas to enter the highway.
For drag racing use anything else. For mostly street use, the Transgo stuff is developed better for part throttle(more responsive).
Good luck,
DonW

 

[Big Duke]

Well, I do not live in the sunshine state and although I do care about the environment, I will only be here so long. I'll let my future son worry about the smog I want the fastest ex on the road. Now, some might ask why not get a stang, vette, etc etc. Well, I'm to damn big for those cars. (6'5" 280) Therein lies the problem. So if you had all the money at your diposal. And you wanted to do the job right.

What would you do?

 

[rocket 5979]

Riverat - It would be much easier to reach that goal without having to worry about carb and emissions testing by installing a roots charger. It seems like it will give you everything you will want, while also letting you pass emissions testing. I know sometimes it is just plain coolto think of a purely N/A engine that is an animal also. But in this day and age it is hard to surpass the benefits of todays supercharged engines that still get ok gas mileage and pass emissions in states that do so.


Big Duke - If you wanted to build a superfast explorer based on the 2nd gen platform startingwith a 5.0. I would first build a stroker shortblock with billet crank and connecting rods with billet pistons. Build it for really low compression like 8:1 or so. Maybe 8.5:1 or so. Then I would throw a Lentech built 4R70W tranny in therewith their very strong planetary gear set. Throw a manual valve body in there so I can shift it like a manual but without the hassle of finding the gears. You could go full auto and be just fine, but I like to have a little control of the vehicle for the fun sake of it. I would get a precision built 3000 stall T/C. Canfield or Trickflow P&P & flow tested stage 3 heads. Victor 5.0 short runner intake. Very aggressive Wolverine or Crane custom ground blower/turbo cam. Custom built by myself or other skilled fabber intake tract through water to air I/C. Procharger F-1A supercharger with custom bracketry to make it fit the engine(Custom single Garrett T76 turbo if ya got enough loot) running at least 24 lbs boost. Full return Aeromotive fuel system tuned by FAST, with 120-150 lb injectors and dual fuel pumps. MSD digital ignition. Holley NOS 125 shot wet nitrous system with dual carbon fiber bottles. Custom 9" rearend with tuned drag suspension. Eaton Electronic locker(Maybe ARB airlocker depending on weight), hope it survives. 15" x 12" Weld racing Bullet hole style rims with 28" Hoosier slicks on the rear. 15" x 8" Weld racing bullet hole rims with street tires, non-directional tread. Custom reinforced stainless steel driveshaft. Full 3" true dual exhaust with offroad H pipe(more detail dictated by use of charger or turbo), Custom 1 7/8" longtube headers. Dual flex-lite electric fans. Dual tranny coolers with small flex-lite fans. Oil cooler with fan also. 6 point rollcage. 5 point harnesses for passenger and driver. Momo steering wheel simply because I like them. Full Autometer backlit greenglow guages. Full Baer brake system. HID headlights for night racing. Wheelie bars-------cause ya just may need em! Full march pullies and brackets for prettiness if I can get em. All hoses and lines will be AN blue and red fittings. Front Sparco seats for side hugging stability. Reinforced, adjustable front shock towers This should all get you well into the 9's with a driver that knows what they are doing. So it is your call for a parachute. There are alot of options along the way like instead of going with a 302-347 stroker you could squeeze in a 393 stroker based off the 351 block. 2" or 3" cowl hood would be a good thing to dissipate heat better,any taller than that and it starts to look ridiculous. Well that is my combo. Should be good for over 1,000 rwhp. I know I am forgetting some minor things but I should have most of the big stuff covered. By the way if any of you want to know the price to build something like this? Well lets just say ALOT!!! To do it all right and doing some stuff yourself and paying for others to do some work. I would say that at least $35,000 to do it all right with quality work done. Maybe some broken parts along the way too of course. And as a given there will be plenty of dyno tuning involved too. If you do that combo then you will be the fastest explorer ever. But ya best do it quick cause Bill and Dan have a few plans for the explorer and already have about 7 years head start. What I outlined would be no easy task. It would require someone who knew their stuff and had a locked on and concrete plan from the get go. But it would be fun!

 

[tmsoko]

You will need to get a 50oz imbalance for your stroker, so the FRPP shortblocks will not work. If you want to run a 28 or 0 imbalance, you will need to make a custom damper / crank pulley / DIS trigger assembly. I am in the process of doing this and it is somewhat involved and very expensive!

As for a 5.8L / 351W, can be done - has been done by SVE @ Ford. Necessary changes: Custom DIS cam sensor where distributor sits, Custom oil pan, 50oz imbalance or custom damper, custom headers.

 

[boominXplorer]

Oh boy I need to jump in here. Im looking at stroking in the summertime. Nitrous just isn't fast enough.

 

[CDW6212R]

Boomin, throw in some reality, my boots won't pull up any higher. Whew!

 

[V8BoatBuilder]

Wheelie bars-------cause ya just may need em! .... So it is your call for a parachute.

Badass Rocket.... Badass.

 

[Big Duke]

Excellent. The X is in the process of becoming the "Xperiment" We're gonna take our time w/ this and WATCH the work be done. We are finally in a position to have somebody do all our dream work for us. Just gotta find that gifted talent of a mechanic. Thanks for giving us a place to start Rocket. We'll see what comes from it. We definetely won't be starting till August of next year. As far as Bill and Dan go, we are in no hurry, although we don't plan on spending more than 2 years. Hell, if they finish 1st, we'll have to modify so we can top 'em!

Thanks Again,
Duke

 

[rocket 5979]

Boomin, throw in some reality, my boots won't pull up any higher. Whew!

Hey the guy asked a question and I gave a real and accurate answer.




Tmsoko---what are you talking about the imbalance for? Shortblock 302 is a shortblock 302 is a shortblock 302. Stroker or not, the harmonic balancer can be replaced. A full shortblock already assembled should be balanced anyways if done right. If you rely upon the harmonic damper to solely balance things then problems will arise.



Hey Big Duke---You askeda question and I gave a real answer of what can be done. However it was a little outlandish. If you really got the knowledge and money and resources then go for it. But some of those resources even I cannot muster. I would highly suggest to go with something a little less aggessive unless you are going for all out race and noooooo street vehicle. What I outlined will not be streetable in any real sense. I can also tell you a more tamed down version to get to about 600rwhp which will be more than 99% of people would need or desire in a vehicle, let alone an explorer. But it is all in how serious you are. We get alot of people in here that come in with huge plans and then they all fizzle out to justa catback exhaust or something else minor. Give us a real sense of how serious you are and there are people here including myself who have knowledge and will help you with information.

 

[Big Duke]

Rocket, I know what you stated was alittle far out but I did ask what your "dream X" would be. So Thanks.
You have laid out a very tricked out dragster, but I do plan on making this a street machine. I have a picture in my mind and a number also. It needs Originality, while staying on the cutting edge and keeping it as "aesthetically close to stock as possible"
Like I said, this is the "Xperiment" (patent pending) This is my baby.

 

[BeauJ]

Rocket, that explorer wish-list of yours got my panties wet

If I were rich, I'd do it just to do it.

 

[boominXplorer]

Boomin, throw in some reality, my boots won't pull up any higher. Whew!

Well considering I have done alot of boltons as of now and to get any more power than what I have the next step is a cam. When I tear into the motor I'm going all new. You got any time slips? I do and I would be glad to post. I havent been doing much lately mainly because I have been saving up for the summer build.

 

[CDW6212R]

I'm just stock at the moment, with 17.2 and 17.5 times, 17" Cobra wheels. I've got a work vehicle tying up my time at the moment.

Robert, your last reply to Big Duke was the response I would have given him. I know all of those dream thoughts are possible. For 99.99% of the public though, they are just dreams.

Big Duke, here's a more realistic dream: Have an intake custom made to mount a new Cobra intake onto. Modify a new Cobra Eaton supercharger to mount to the intake(lengthen the snout).
Have the AODE(best description) rebuilt with a TransGo shift kit, high quality frictions and steels, and the "A" overdrive servo parts(3).
Buy all of the Lightning/Cobra support parts: MAF, injectors, fuel pumps, etc. Get it all installed and running with a proper chip or flasher.
Upgrade the exhaust to support the larger volume of air. The whole system should be scrapped(The Torque Monster headers are still too small). Build better headers(1.625" primaries, 2.5" collectors).
Then change the engine for a 347 built for the supercharger. Change the pulley to the Lightning pulley, which may require bigger injectors, MAF. Retune it, then change to a modified Kenne Bell supercharger, and fine tune it once more.
The final result should be well over 500HP at the wheels, streetable and repeatable.

Of course upgrade the suspension and brakes before you get deep into the project. Expect problems along the way, but when done it should be as reliable as any stock Cobra or Lightning. Good luck,
DonW